Tiffany Irving 0:54
Gloria Steinem once said, we will never solve the feminization of power until we solve the masculinity of wealth. Barbara Provost and Maggie Nielsen are the team at purse strings that will help you navigate the ins and outs of financial independence so that you can be financially fearless. This is women and money, the shit we don’t talk about.

Maggie Nielsen 1:19
Tiffany, we are so excited to have you on our show today. Before we get started, could you give a little intro about who you are and what you do?

Tiffany Irving 1:27
Sure. First ladies, let me say thank you. I’m excited and honored to join you today. You’ve had some great speakers in the past, so I’m glad to be included with them. My name is Tiffany Irving. I’m a Senior Wealth Advisor with Mesirow in Chicago, Illinois. I’ve been in the wealth management space now for over 25 years, so a lot of expertise and experience there. I’m a Certified Financial Planner and a Certified Exit Planning Advisor. So work with a diverse client base here in the city and other geographies around the United States, but excited to be here today. So thanks for having me.

Maggie Nielsen 2:03
Awesome. Yeah, we’re very excited to have you here. And so diving in today with all things female breadwinner. Let’s just start with, you know, a shared definition of kind of what this means for listeners who aren’t as quite sure what that verbiage is. Can you kind of explain what you know the female breadwinner would be?

Tiffany Irving 2:20
Sure, I keep it pretty simple, actually, right? What does the female breadwinner win? It’s women who are earning more than their male partners. It doesn’t necessarily mean the sole income earner, but it can mean that, but it’s it’s really just if you’re earning more than your partner.

Barbara Provost 2:34
and and Tiffany, were you always in your partnership with your husband? Were you always a female breadwinner?

Tiffany Irving 2:41
I was not. So our story is is a longer one, but we got together pretty early in life, and so we were both working and going to college, and had some early conversations in our relationship that we knew once we had children, our goal was always to have one of us stay home, and I’m pretty honest about who I am, and I think my kids appreciate that it wasn’t me. Well,

Barbara Provost 3:07
that’s so funny. I love it well, you know, and that you just in that you discussed it, and really, you know, had some talk about it, which, you know, sometimes people just land where they are within any discussion, which is not good, so interesting that you kind of decided, first up, you know, what your role would be once you had children?

Tiffany Irving 3:28
Yeah, it was a conversation we had early on, before, before we even got married, to have that discussion. And you know, we had different experiences. My, as you mentioned, my mom was a single mom growing up. And for my husband, his mom was home a lot of his her early childhood. So he has very specific memories around her being home with with them when they were younger.

Barbara Provost 3:50
Interesting. So let’s talk a little bit about that. Are you an only child I know raised by a single mom, and what impact do you think that may have had on your reason for being the breadwinner?

Tiffany Irving 4:02
Yeah, great, great question. I am not an only child. I had an older brother who’s four years older than me. Passed a few years ago. I would say we had a bit of a modern family. I’ve also got a sister who’s about 10 years younger than me as well. So there are the three of us, but I would say it definitely defined my views early on, which, looking back, I see I didn’t know at the time, because I was a kid and self absorbed. And you know how kids are, but just thinking about now, you know, kudos to all of the single parents out there. Like it is amazing to me how they are able to do the things that they do. But early on, I thought, you know, if, if something ever happened, and it was ever in a situation, I never wanted to be able to be forced to stay somewhere, because I didn’t have the financial freedom and financial independence, so I just kind of got that early on, I felt like I needed to make sure that I could take care of myself. Yeah,

Maggie Nielsen 4:57
I think that’s very common from a lot of the women we’ve had. On this podcast, and other women that we’ve talked to is like, you know, they’ve seen their family struggle or stuck in situations and they knew, like, money’s the way out. I’m gonna make sure that that bucket is covered so I know whatever, you know, whatever happens, I can get out of whatever situation I’m in. And it’s just interesting to see from whatever we went through as children that we found, you know, that need to have that escape plan for better or for worse, which you know can be really great. Later down the line, you’re like, Wow, good job for me to have all this money to support myself.

Tiffany Irving 5:31
Yeah, and it’s interesting to think back on, but I think it really drives some of the money belief scripts that we talk with our clients about right, whether you’re talking about money avoidance or abundance or worshiping money, or, you know, money vigilance, like we all come at it from what our backgrounds were, and when you think about it really drives how we handle our money going forward.

Maggie Nielsen 5:53
Yeah, definitely. And as someone who had, you know, I had a stay at home dad, where Barb worked. You know, it was very much like, of course, women are in business. Of course, women are earning this cash, like that never crossed my mind, because that’s kind of the dynamic that we had in our house. But it was never, it was something I realized later. I was like, oh, not everyone, not everyone had that kind of perceptive, you know, or perception, absolutely,

Barbara Provost 6:17
yeah, and I agree with you. I mean, all that the way we’re raised, especially as young girls, you know, sometimes we see the opposite. You know, my husband’s going to take care of me. Or, you know, I don’t pay attention to the finances, which is really what purse strings is trying to get in front of the fact that money is your power, and if you don’t really step into your power and learn how to manage it. Then you can be in places where you’re stuck. And we don’t want women to feel stuck in a marriage, stuck in an apartment they hate, stuck in a career they hate. You know, we want to make sure that they’re empowered to get out. So yeah, kudos to you. So you are managing your household bringing in the income, and how do you manage the income once it comes in the door? What are conversations you may have had about what that looks like? Because we know when men earn the money, there’s a lot of different perceptions around that. But how is it different when you’re the breadwinner? Yeah,

Tiffany Irving 7:19
I think, I think it’s different for every couple in every relationship where they come from. So as I our situation being different, you know, we, I married my high school sweetheart, we moved out when I was 18, right? So we really have built everything kind of together over time, and in a lot of cases, what we’re seeing now, especially in metropolitan areas, right? People are starting women are starting their careers, they’re starting businesses, they’re starting to build some wealth on their own before they find their life partner, whoever that might be. So you might have two people coming in with very different financial situations, or both really a nice set financial situation, and so kind of how they have that conversation about how they want to manage those finances going forward. So some people combine everything and join accounts. Other people keep things a little bit separate and have joint operating accounts. You know, you just really have to talk through I think it’s imperative to have, I’ve heard other people call them like money dates, if you will, not very exciting. I can tell you my husband does not like when I’m, you know, paying bills or talking about money, but I think it’s really important to have those conversations so that you know you’ve got a good, a good handle on what accounts you own, where they’re at, God forbid something happened to one of you, how do I access them? Do you both have that? And I know we’ll talk about that a little bit more, but I think that’s really, really important, and for a variety of other reasons, we work with a lot of we work with a lot of families that where there’s a divorce situation, right? And so it’s important to understand and know what you both have, what you both brought into the relationship, and to be able to work through that on the settlement side, it is, you

Maggie Nielsen 8:48
know, a different perspective as you guys kind of have grown together, and so you’ve seen each other both, you know, go through the struggles, go through what was hard, and and come out successful and and all those different things. And so when I was kind of, you know, preparing for this episode. And I was reading some different articles where some people were saying, you know, it doesn’t matter who’s the breadwinner. It all goes to one bucket, and it doesn’t matter, you know, that’s the bucket. But then some other people said, you know, that’s kind of, the man’s role. He’s the provider. And so if that’s not his role, it’s a little emasculating, which, you know, as as we raise, you know, boys, and that’s kind of their role. I can see how you get that, you know, lost identity older, when you’re older, because, of course, you can’t bear the children. That’s just scientifically but then, but then there’s, you know, kind of this third perspective, where a lot of women have said, God, now I’m the breadwinner, and it’s adding to the list of everything else that I do. And I can really see kind of all three of these perspectives. So do you want to dive into some of these, or give us kind of your thoughts about, you know, how do you kind of manage when we have these different, you know, three different ways we can kind of come to this, to this women bread. Winner?

Tiffany Irving 10:01
Yeah, it’s an interesting I mean, backing up just a little bit, I think empowerment and education. So you know, what you all doing is fantastic at purse strings, but women still aren’t really being it’s getting better, but we’re not really being raised as breadwinners, honestly. Again, it’s getting better, different. When I was in school, it was a government and econ. I’m starting to finally see some financial courses, but, but definitely not enough, right and right? You know, being taught to build your own wealth, to pursue your own full earning potential, providing for yourself, but, but others as well. And you know, unfortunately, the results that we see is that women, when we know that women earned less, so we’re still fighting for equality there, you know, if you run into a situation because we earn less, maybe we don’t have as much in emergency funds or savings, so then we take on debt, and we owe more, right? So we have significantly less saved and invested for our futures than our male counterparts do, and we live longer typically. So the whole from the, you know, the early on in life, all the way through retirement, you know, I feel like there’s always this struggle. So I think it’s important to start having the conversation early on and educating each other to build that financial confidence around what you can earn, what’s your earning potential? How do you save? How do you invest? You know, and build that confidence about wealth and investing. So that’s kind of one, one piece of it. And also so that when you come into a relationship with your partner, whatever that looks like, right? You’ve got that financial confidence where you don’t necessarily feel like you have to lean on them in any way. I think that’s a big deal. The conflicts, I think that you mentioned there Maggie, are, are big, right? There’s a domestic burden. There’s external judgments, parents, friends, co workers, right? Community members, right? Unfortunately, about there’s just some prejudices and some expectations there. And can it be threatening or emasculating? And I would say absolutely, it’s a conversation we’ve we’ve had in our house, and at times, you know, we’ll go to a work event or something, a client event, and, you know, my husband will be asked what he does, and he’s like, Oh, I’m the homemaker. And then conversation stops. It’s like people don’t know what to do with that. Yeah, right. And he’s proud of, you know, he’s proud of it. Thank God he cooks. I’m a terrible cook, right? He takes care of a lot of those things. But honestly, we also split our, you know, the domestic burden there, there are things, you know, ruin a couple of my sweaters. I’m going to start doing my own laundry right, things like that. How dare you right? So again, I think it’s conversations as a couple about what works for you and not letting that external judgment get in the way of your overall relationship. But a lot of the statistics out there Maggie are, you know, 40% of female breadwinners are still taking the lead in housework. I think that was done in 2019 you know, when it’s roles are reversed, only 14% of male breadwinners are helping with the housework. Again, if that works for you and your relationship, that’s fine, but those are conversations you know, that you have to have. And again, it doesn’t have to be sole breadwinner. If you’re both out, you’re both working, you’re both earning, then it kind of, who takes on what what role. The other challenge is, you know, juggling caregiving needs, right? We have limited, subsidized child care and elder care here in the US, right? So if the cost of caregiving is too high, it’s kind of which partner leaves their job to take care of the family. If that’s the case, well, typically, it’s the person who earned less. Women typically earn less. So you kind of fall back into these old patterns, no matter how hard we try to push back, right? So I think that’s important as well.

Barbara Provost 13:47
It’s a tough one, and I think personality has something to do with it, right? I mean, you can talk about it, but I think, you know, as I was a breadwinner, and I would come home, I was still their mom, you know what I mean? So I still had that mom connection, and made sure that, did they have, you know, a healthy dinner? Are they getting, you know, things done? Are they getting to bed on and so some people call that the second shift, or unpaid work, which I think it’s you’re being a good parent. You know, you’re trying to be the best parent you can be. But it is difficult for many women who are who don’t have a partner that shares in a lot of that, which is really, really hard. And we saw that during the pandemic, you know, women were the safety net for everything. They were the nurse, they were the teacher, they were the consoler. They were, you know, the, you know, maybe managing, making sure the household had enough, you know, food and and whatever means they needed. So I think that’s where a lot of women were getting really burned out and leaving the workforce,

Tiffany Irving 14:51
right? I think, yeah, I think it’s imperative. I think, you know, it’s not just financial support, but it’s emotional support for. Other. And you know that just really kind of denote respect for one another. You know, depending on how your day goes, who does what? Again, those are, those are conversations that you can have. But whether it’s just, you know, the female breadwinner or the male breadwinner, and from a Financial Planning and Advising perspective, I’m always like, I want to talk to both partners, both spouses, because I think it’s important for you both to understand, what are those short and long term goals and objectives? How do we work on, you know, getting there together. Have we taken the steps we need to really build the life that we want to build together, and what does that look like? I think you’ve got to be on the same page.

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Maggie Nielsen 16:24
Yeah, it’s it’s so interesting when we hear conversations where it’s just one partner going to the financial professional, because it’s my money. I earned it. It’s my money, even though we had this joint conversation that you’re going to stay home and watch the kids, somehow just this money is my money. And so bringing that conversation together and really planning for both financial futures is so important because, like we said, I mean, there’s so much caretaking that, you know, usually falls on women, but then women do live longer. That’s just kind of statistically how it is. And so we have to plan for those years alone, which suck, but it’s true. And so we have to, you know, kind of be prepared for that, that situation

Tiffany Irving 17:05
Absolutely, absolutely. And some of the other statistics I saw were the divorce rates, kind of among female breadwinners tend to be a little bit higher, kind of unpacking and uncovering why that may be, and it says up to perhaps 50% higher when the partner is out earning her male partner. And I think it’s for some of those, some of those conversations we were talking about earlier, whether that’s domestic burdens, whether that’s external judgments, you know how to work through some of those issues as a couple is going to be really, really, really important.

Maggie Nielsen 17:41
So what kind of tips do you have for couples to either have these conversations or things that they should touch on during these conversations, or kind of, you know, get this started for them as as we know, these conversations are not always the easiest or the most enjoyable. Sometimes,

Tiffany Irving 17:56
Oh, absolutely. And it shifts over time, right, depending on a person’s career opportunities are passed to your point asking me, right? Who you know, I’m pretty sure early on, my husband was making more than me when we first started our relationship, right? So opportunities change for each of the spouses and then making the decisions about what’s best, about what’s best for your family. But I think money conversations should be had early on. It’s an important part. You know, just as you would talk about medical issues or where you want to live, or kind of all of those things, if you want to have kids or not have kids, then also kind of talk about money and sharing, kind of your your money beliefs, or your money history, kind of what you grew up with, so that your partner understands where you’re coming from or why your behavior may be the way that it is, I think drives a lot of that as well. But I think it’s important to do these. As I mentioned earlier. Some people call those the money dates, where you have these conversations on a regular basis, what does our budget look like? Are we staying on budget? Here’s what we’ve saved. I always say, start with and that’s the conversation. You know, building early on in your in your career, building up that emergency savings to get you set so that is if there is an emergency, if there is a job loss, you know, something happens, you take care of parents. Something comes up, you want to avoid taking on deaths that you know, unnecessary debts, credit cards, personal loans. So start there, obviously adding to employee benefits and your retirement plans. At work, you want to start adding to those as soon as you can, right? We know the power of investing and compounding over time. The earlier you start, the better there. So some of these kind of financial investment one, oh, and I say 101, but not everyone knows them, right? So it’s making sure you’re educated and you understand what those needs are. I would say the other thing that is really important for for all couples is risk, the risk management side of financial planning. So we spend quite a bit of time talking about this. But you know, if I got hit by a bus tomorrow, or the breadwinner, your female breadwinner, you get hit by a bus. To our sole, sole income earner for your family. Well, then what happens, right? And so making sure you have enough assets and income for your family to manage going forward if suddenly you were no longer there. So a lot of that is insurance, insurance analysis, whether that’s life insurance, looking at, you know, if, if your spouse had to suddenly go to work, especially in our situation, he’s been out of workforce for 20 years, right? He’s likely not going to make the same income I am, and now someone has to take care of our younger kid who’s still at home. We have two in college, so there’s just a whole lot of costs embedded there. So making sure that you’ve got that protection for your family should something happen to you, and not only death, we talk a lot about disability because we’re much more likely to become disabled than we are to pass away at a younger age. So talking through what coverage you have through your employer and whether or not that’s enough, I think that’s important, as I mentioned earlier, understanding what your assets are, where they’re held, how they’re titled, that you have access to them, you know, know the pin, know the pins, logins, all those things, yeah, is really critically important. And then obviously estate planning, which, you know, working with your estate planning attorney, and you’re looking at your powers of attorney for healthcare and financial matters, and, you know, making sure that you’re taking care of from that perspective. I mean, all of those pieces, it’s such a big financial puzzle that we put together for our clients. Yeah, that’s where I geek out. I like pulling all the pieces together. But for every, but for every family situation, it’s different. It’s unique. You know, if you’re, you’re a single mom trying to do all this, there’s, a lot, especially on the risk management for a single mom, should something happen to her. So I think that, you know, it’s just incredibly important to understand. And I would say, if this isn’t what you do for a living, which most of us don’t, you got to find a financial advisor or planner that can help you determine what strategies would be best for you and your family. Yeah,

Barbara Provost 22:00
I remember hearing this person say, you know, what, if in your basement, you had this machine that made money, and every month you just went downstairs and you got this money, and then you could, you could pay all your bills with it, you know. Wouldn’t that be cool? And you know, wouldn’t you protect it from flooding, from, you know, wouldn’t you make sure nothing was around it? Wouldn’t you make sure it was secured in a place that you know nothing would happen to it. It’s the same thing you’re talking about your income, right? That’s the same thing. You need to protect the person who’s making the income. But also, in a marriage, when you have children, you have to protect the stay at home person, because if something were to happen to that person, same thing, right? If something were to happen to your husband with all the work that he’s doing, we know as being moms and raising children, same thing, but so many people think it’s a scam. Life insurance is a scam, or it’ll never happen to me. Oh yeah, I’ll put that. I’ll get to that. But the reality is, it’s not that expensive, it’s not that complicated, and it can really help you sleep at night knowing that if something were to happen, we’re good, you know. I mean, that’s peace of mind,

Tiffany Irving 23:09
absolutely, absolutely. I think that’s, you know, even, even as advisors, I think that’s the one thing people put off until you see something happen in your family or friend group, right? And I was just listening to, and I’m gonna forget which, which podcast it was. I listened to so many because I’m in the car a lot. But recently they were talking about the age, average age of widows in the US, 59 Well, you saw 59 that’s and that’s what I thought. But this podcast that it’s come down, and it’s somewhere between like 48 and 56 now. And I thought that’s awfully that’s awfully young. And so whatever that is, but, you know, you you want to be prepared.

Maggie Nielsen 23:51
It is young. But I think about the last three people I met who are widows, and they were all widowed in their 30s, you know, with small children. And so it’s just like, okay, you know, it’s not just like, you’re seeing the stats. It’s not just like, Oh, someone says that, but it’s really not happening. It’s like, No, I looked up and that’s who I see that happening for. And so it’s one of those things. It’s like, you can’t wait because it’s just going to be too late sometimes.

Barbara Provost 24:20
Yeah, yes, absolutely, yeah. And I had a financial advisor say that a client called and said, I have to stop paying on this life insurance because we just found out we’re going to have twins. And he said, that’s when you need to double your life insurance. You know, not when you have to stop paying. I mean, that has to be a priority, especially if you’re raising children. So the protection piece that so many people overlook is really, really critical. So thank you for bringing that up. Yeah, I

Tiffany Irving 24:50
think that’s, I think that’s definitely an important piece. I mean, I’m excited about again, when I started in the industry back in the late 90s. I’m aging myself a little bit. I. Um, you know, it was very male dominated industry, and, you know, the advisors were talking solely with them, I’m just gonna male spouses and the wives, and the wives weren’t in the room. And it really, it was so very bothersome to me to see that, which is, you know, sort of why I’ve dedicated my my career to working with women in wealth and trying to empower women, to take control. So it has, we’ve we’ve come forward, not as far forward as I would like to see, but we’re getting there. I think it’s changing. We’re having the conversation and bringing to the forefront, which I think is really, really, really critical. I think it’s interesting. You know, I don’t necessarily, one way or another, want to talk about politics, but it’s been interesting and fun to watch and have my eight year old son watch the debates on TV and see the different right? We’ve got a woman running for president, yes, a potential first husband. What does that look like? You know him, right, supporting and respecting his wife’s ambitions like, I think that’s important. And Maga tier point growing up in a house where the gender, you know, gender roles, weren’t, you know, the traditional, normal gender roles just is phenomenal for the next generation to see. So I think it’s pretty exciting time. Yeah,

Maggie Nielsen 26:13
it’s, it’s super interesting. And I, you know, I don’t want any women listening to this to say, Oh, I shouldn’t be a stay at home mom then, because I get That’s totally a calling for some people as well, and that’s totally fine. We just wanted to have this conversation for those female breadwinners, because we know that’s also a very dynamic role as well. And so there’s, again, like there’s no right or wrong. I guess the only right thing is, like having that open communication and making sure that you’re covered, and you’re working with your financial planner, and you’re having these open conversations, because, as we say, you know, in any of these things, one size is not fit all. We are not cookie cutter. And so you just don’t know someone’s dynamics until you dive into it. And like, for you, Tiffany, I mean, if you’ve been married for so long, you guys have been through all these ups and downs. You guys know each other so well that you know it evens out. I think in the end of you know who’s earning what and when, you know, and all these things over the lifetime, where it’s not like, you know, we’re just coming together and looking for a bunch of money to stay home, Oh, for sure. And how

Tiffany Irving 27:17
do you put a value on stay at home, parents, it’s right, you don’t. It’s invaluable. So again, to your point, like there is no judgment for anyone. That is a important, critical role that some families choose for themselves. And you know, obviously they don’t technically earn a paycheck, but wow, that’s invaluable, right? So I think there’s so

Maggie Nielsen 27:39
much money not going out the door to to daycare and to these other things where, you know, building those relationships with your parents and seeing them, you know, being with your you know, the parents and kids all day at home. I mean, that’s an awesome bond as well. So like I said, yeah, there’s no the only right thing is having that open communication, having those conversations to make sure that’s the right fit. Because who knows, in 10 years when all the kids are out of the house, it might flip again. Of you know, you want to try something new, and he’s going to get back to the workforce, or whatever it may be, you know, we have a lifetime. And so it’s that consistent communication as life ebbs and flows.

Tiffany Irving 28:13
Oh, sure, absolutely. Yeah. I think it’s interesting, too. I did a recent article where someone was asking me about this, and I said I got tired of putting like homemaker down for him, because this didn’t seem like enough. So I call him our chief. He’s the Irving family Chief Operating Officer. There you go. Yeah. Because really, without him, nothing would would run. So I think that my point earlier, like it’s got to be respect for your roles in the relationship, whether that’s breadwinner or, you know, you’re earning more than your partner. It’s just kind of respecting each other throughout, yeah,

Barbara Provost 28:46
yeah, sure, yeah. And we say, you know, like Maggie said, communicate, communicate, communicate. If we’re not talking about money, we’re not learning about money. So I’m so glad that, Tiffany, you came and joined us today, and that we’re able to have this open conversation about what it’s like to be the breadwinner in the family, and you know how you manage to make that work for you?

Tiffany Irving 29:07
Yeah, absolutely. And make it work for me, but also for clients, understanding kind of what their steps need to be and how how to get the right advice out there that works for their unique family situation, whatever that looks like.

Maggie Nielsen 29:19
Any last tips, tricks, pieces of advice you want to share today before we sign off.

Tiffany Irving 29:23
Yeah, I think again, as as Barb said, communication is really important. Sometimes they’re difficult conversations, but you have to have the difficult conversations. If it’s not something that you’re, you know, self self funding, then seek the assistance of a financial planner or financial advisor your CPA, you know, find a trusted advisor that can help kind of guide you in that right direction. Think about, you know, not only kind of your current income, but where you want to see your financial future. What does that look like for you? Really define it? Write down those goals and objectives. I think that’ll make a huge difference. And I would say, find it. And. Financial Planning is dynamic, so I would say that too things change in our lives, right? And so we have to be flexible and open to adjust those plans along the way. So

Maggie Nielsen 30:10
you mean meeting with you is just not once and done.

Tiffany Irving 30:14
It’s not a one and done. It just unfortunately doesn’t work that way. Yeah, good.

Maggie Nielsen 30:19
I’d love to spend more time with you. Tiffany,

Tiffany Irving 30:21
absolutely no. Thank you. I think you know our lives are dynamic. They’re ever changing our job, our jobs change, our families change. We have kids, we have grandkids, we have I’m in that sandwich generation. So we have, you know, aging parents. So all of those are important conversations to have.

Maggie Nielsen 30:37
Yeah, definitely. Well, thank you again, Tiffany for coming on today. You know really sharing your expertise about being a female breadwinner and just being such a great example as well. So Tiffany is one of our purse strings approved professionals, and so you can check her out on our site, purse strings.co Of course, all of our contact information will be in the show notes as well. And remember, as always, just take one small step forward today. Whatever that may be, it could just be booking a call with Tiffany. So until then, we’ll talk to everyone soon and be financially fearless. Information

Speaker 1 31:11
is for illustrative purposes only and does not constitute tax investment or legal advice. Always consult with a qualified investment legal or tax professional before taking any action the.

Transcribed by https://otter.ai