What Does It Mean to Vote With Your Dollar? with Erin Fangmann and Kate Marsh Lord
Every purchase you make is a vote. The trouble is, most of us never stop to ask who we’re voting for when we’re just trying to grab a backpack, refill the soap, and get the birthday gift in the mail on time.
In this episode, we have Erin Fangmann and Kate Marsh Lord, the co-founders of Little Blue Cart, a platform that connects conscious consumers with values-driven small businesses. Inspired by a conversation after the 2024 election, they built Little Blue Cart around their kitchen table with a mission to make it easier for people to support small businesses that reflect their values of democracy, equality, and freedom.
As military spouses with more than 30 years of combined experience as small business owners, Kate and Erin understand the resilience, creativity, and determination it takes to build a business through constant change. Building on that mission, they recently launched Little Blue Market, an online marketplace where small businesses can sell directly to shoppers. Together, Little Blue Cart and Little Blue Market help independent businesses grow while empowering consumers to make a meaningful impact through their everyday purchasing decisions.
What does it mean to vote with your money? Every purchase is a decision about whose values you are funding. When you spend, you are choosing which businesses and which principles get your dollars, so where your money goes ends up being a clear reflection of what actually matters to you.
How do you start ‘shopping your values’ without feeling overwhelmed? Start with one thing. No one expects perfection tomorrow, and it is not realistic to swap 100 percent of your spending overnight. The next time you are buying a birthday gift or back-to-school supplies, pick one purchase to make intentionally and get it from a small or local business. Once you think intentionally about one purchase, it starts to become a habit for the next.
Does shopping your values actually cost more money? Not necessarily, and that is one of the biggest misconceptions. Some sellers offer free shipping once you hit a certain amount, and while a values-aligned marketplace is not built like the giant platforms, the idea that spending with your values always costs more simply is not true.
Why does it matter where you shop, not just what you buy? 68 cents of every dollar you spend locally stays in your community and goes toward things like your schools and local resources. On top of that, small businesses keep a far bigger share of each sale than they do on the big platforms, so who you buy from changes how much of your money actually reaches real people.
What is the difference between Little Blue Cart and Little Blue Market? Little Blue Cart is a directory of progressive, values-aligned small businesses, both product-based and service-based, that works like a searchable yellow pages you can sort by category or by state. Little Blue Market lets you shop those small product-based businesses directly, all in one place.
How do businesses get listed on Little Blue Cart? Little Blue Cart is completely free to join. Businesses fill out an application, agree to the community guidelines and value statement, and go through a quick vetting process. There are optional one-time add-ons for linking socials or featuring a listing, but a free listing gets just as much love and attention.
Join us for the next Money Talks “Aligning Spending with your Values”. Click here to registerfor FREE and bring your questions!
Have questions? Click this to check out our expert Q&A for tips from industry experts, tailored to help women address their most common financial concerns.
Subscribe to our newsletter to receive financial tips delivered weekly here!
Barbara Provost, EdD and Maggie Nielsen, MBA are the co-founders of Purse Strings, a national platform helping women make confident financial decisions by connecting them with vetted financial professionals who truly understand women’s lives and money needs. Purse Strings connects women across the U.S. with vetted financial professionals who specialize in supporting women through divorce, money transitions, and financial independence.
Full Episode Transcript
(This transcript was generated using AI, so please excuse any misspellings or errors)
PS: Little Blue Cart (MP3)
[00:00:00] I know you’ve heard us say it before about how spending your money is really, you know, voting with your money, and you really want it to reflect your values. And it’s interesting ’cause I’ve been on threads and people are like, “I don’t wanna look at my budget. It makes me feel so bad,” or, ” I don’t wanna look at what I’ve been spending on.”
But to me, that should be such a great reflection of like these are my values, these are what’s important to me. even though it might not be the most fun thing, like car insurance, you know, I do value my safety. I value being able to get [00:00:30] myself places. I’ve worked really hard to get myself a car, whatever that may be, and you know, like, God, if I didn’t have a car, this would be so difficult.
So just having that gratitude for your car is really helpful. And so when I go through my line items and think about where I’m spending, I always try to align it with my values. Am I perfect? Absolutely not. It’s not 100% of the time. But a time where I really focus on this is when I buy gifts for my nieces and nephews, as I want them to know that this is important to me.
[00:01:00] It’s easy for them to do. They’re still really great products. So instead of getting them like, I don’t know, another tchotchke like they always have, I got my niece a nice T-shirt from a woman-owned business or from a local company or, you know, she wanted a new purse, so I got it from a, a company that I know gives back, is ecological, is woman-owned.
So those are really important values to me, and I always make sure I put in like the business card or a bit about them. I don’t know how much they’re catching on, but the oldest is 17 now, so [00:01:30] she must be picking up something. And it is a lot of work sometimes finding the place to order from. You never know, what really their values are, who really owns it.
Sometimes you have to deep dive. Not every place has a huge About Us page. And you have to think ahead. Like granted, it is easier just to run to the Target, run to the Walmart, you know, some big box store, but I know this is really important to me and to spend with my values. [00:02:00] And so it’s worth my time and my extra energy.
But I’m so excited to share this new website with everyone. newer to me, but maybe new to you guys, founded in 2024 called Little Blue Cart, where this way you can purchase all these things by supporting local, by spending with your values, by knowing this money is going to people who align with your values.
And you don’t have to do all the research. They did it for you. So I’m excited for you to dive into this episode and would love to just hear [00:02:30] from you what is a purchase you’ve made recently that aligns with your values that you just love to share about ‘ cause I wanna shop there too. So let’s get started.
[00:03:00]
Maggie: Today, we have Erin and Kate on the podcast with Little Blue Cart. I love having another duo on the show. So before we get started, can you guys introduce yourselves to our audience, who you are, what you do, and what was the conversation kind of after the 2024 election that [00:03:30] made you say, “We have to build this right now”?
Kate: Thank you so much for having us on. We’re really excited to be here to talk a little bit about what we do. So I’m Kate and joining me obviously is business partner Erin, and we met each other as military spouses living overseas in a small Air Force base in Northern Virginia. And then we had these, as military families do, moved all over the place, and in 2024, we found ourselves living, both living in the Northern Virginia area and being really involved in [00:04:00] that election.
Kate: And when the outcome did not go the way that we wanted we, you know, obviously were miserable, and we were sort of commiserating and trying to decide what to do. So I’ll let Erin dive into the origin story a little bit more, but just to, you know, by way of a qui-quick explanation, we built Little Blue Cart, which is a marketplace of progressive businesses both product-based businesses and service-based businesses. So everything from you can go on there to find someone to buy a new sticker for your water bottle [00:04:30] or hire a photographer or a hairdresser. So really the idea is that we have a wide range of resources for people to use their money as a vote and spend it with people whose values align with theirs.
Kate: earlier this year, January, we launched Little Blue Market, which is basically where you can shop those small product-based businesses directly. So on the cart you find them, and then you go shop with them. And on Little Blue Market, you find them and shop all in one place.
Erin: Excellent. the origin story of Little Blue Cart [00:05:00] specifically was immediately after the election, I was just filled with rage and I simultaneously was still having to raise a child that was at home as she was a senior and was needing to have her senior photos done. And I knew that Kate had just had her son’s photos done for his senior year, and I really liked the photos, and I reached out to her and I was like, “Hey, listen, who did your son’s photos?”
Erin: And she told me, and I said, ” Do you know if they voted
Erin: for Trump or not?” [00:05:30] And she said, “I actually do know, and she did not vote for him.” And I said, “Good, because I refuse to spend my money with a small business that voted for this,” because I was just, and still am, rightfully full of rage about this administration.
Erin: So, and that’s how we started. It’s like Kate was like, “We can’t be the only ones that feel this way.” And of course we’re not. And so we decided to harness our rage and our anger and our resources and the [00:06:00] knowledge of our little, abilities of doing different things together and created Little Blue Cart.
Maggie: I love that, and it resonates so much as I mean, the divide used to not be so big, but now it’s much bigger, and so you really are conscious about where you’re spending. And we do say a lot, you know, on our podcast is you’re voting with your money. You know, this kind of reflects where you put your money, where you put your values, and so you do really think about where you are spending that money.
Maggie: I remember waking up that morning, and we were, my mom and I were gonna go to a women’s [00:06:30] empowerment conference, and we were in New York, and I just look at her, and I was like, “It’s gonna be a long day. Like, you know, strap in.” But you know, both of you built this business as military spouses, which means, you know, you’re doing it through moves, limited resources, like constant uncertainty, and I feel like the voting kind of affects you guys a little bit more just being, you know, you aren’t government workers, but attached to government workers.
Maggie: And so what is the hardest kind of financial moment each of you had as business owners, and, and what did that teach [00:07:00] you?
Kate: Yeah. First I wanna, like put a foot stomp on what you just said about being, uh, you know, married and attached to the military in the way that we are, that we’re the community that’s first impacted by a lot of these decisions, like, you know, a war of choice in Iran. And as spouses, we are able to be vocal and speak out and in a way that our spouses simply can’t.
Kate: So we don’t take that lightly and really try to advocate for and give a voice to military spouses especially I’ll [00:07:30] date myself and Erin can join me seasoned you know, our spouses have been in a long time. Like, we’ve seen a lot of things. So we know how unusual and awful it is for active duty folks right now.
Kate: But yeah, like you mentioned, Erin and I were both entrepreneurs indep- independently. We had run many small businesses before we decided to, to start Little Blue Cart. My business was always online and like, kind of mom blogs before influencers were things. And so one of the biggest challenges for me was moving overseas.
Kate: Just the [00:08:00] logistics of, you know, getting products and things and, and shipping overseas. So that was a big, always just a big financial stress. There was a period of time where I had a shipping service that would tack on $25 plus the cost to ship to me in Germany and it was just the only way I could get stuff.
Kate: So, at some point, it just didn’t make financial sense to keep doing it, and so I sold it to a media company in New York, which was a great problem to have. But I, I think like a lot of, you know, one woman run business at home, I had no idea how to evaluate it. Like, w- what do I sell it for? This has been my [00:08:30] full-time job for, at that point, I think five or six years. But, you know, it was like you know, you just wanna undercut yourself. You wanna devalue this, like, massive thing that I had built on my own.
Maggie: But it’s also like your baby, you know? It’s like
Maggie: how do you take the emotional value out of it
Kate: Right. And it, it’s impossible. It was really, really hard. we run into that all the time still.
Kate: Like this is you just care about it so deeply, and I think that’s something all small business owners can relate to, that that was a real challenge to like, I don’t know how you put a dollar value [00:09:00] on this thing that I’ve grown and built and, yeah, it’s like a, a part of me. But Erin had a service-based or uh, product-based businesses, so her, her challenges were really different.
Erin: And I think that that’s great because it just shows that even with us being military wives, our situations can be completely different. So where Kate was doing this basically a service-type based business, I was doing, you know, something, I was creating something. And when I heard your question, I was just like, “This is such a good [00:09:30] question.”
Erin: And I love talking money. I was in banking years ago as a teller. And I’ve always tried to help people get financial freedom on base, you know, just giving my two cents. And but I had had a business, I had just started it uh, we lived in New Jersey at the time, and I was sewing clothes. It was an…
Erin: On accident, as most small businesses tend to start out. It was like, you know, I was making something for my girls, I put it online. This is like, I’m [00:10:00] dating myself, It was like a really new thing. Uh, I think it was like in ’09, I
Maggie: There was no marketplace at that time. It was just Facebook posts.
Erin: No, no, not at all.
Erin: And I just put it on there because uh, we’ve never lived near family, and so I just put it online and was like, “Oh my gosh, look what I made for my girls.” And people were like, “Oh, can you make that for my kid?” And then it… So it just snowballed from there. But we had moved shortly after starting that business, about six months later, and I had just [00:10:30] bought a six-needle embroidery machine, and anybody that has one of those knows they are very, very expensive.
Erin: And I’m from the South, and we put a monogram on anything that sits still. And so, I was super excited about this machine. I like took videos, like it going into the box and then going into the moving truck, and then when we go there and like I, I kept telling the movers, I’m like, ” I have this big machine that’s on truck.”
Erin: And
Erin: they literally, their faces were dropped when they, they were done. [00:11:00] And they were like, “Ma’am, Your machine is not on this truck.” And I started crying. And it took many months and I finally found it. the driver had taken it home with him, and I was very fortunate to have gotten it back.
Erin: But during that time, you know, I had orders. I was only planning on being out of business for like a week ’cause it was just a short move. It’s ‘Cause it wasn’t an international move. It was from New Jersey to Oklahoma. And you know, I was devastated. I [00:11:30] didn’t know how I was gonna be able to pay, I didn’t have that money laying around.
Erin: I had borrowed it, and so I had to pay the money back for that, and then I had to, you know, get all these orders done that I had already obligated myself to do. And so yeah, we experience that moving, we are always having things go missing, and I understand that it’s, it’s just the nature of the of the beast.
Erin: But it was just a perfect situation where we as military spouses, we have to constantly readjust and, [00:12:00] and rethink and reimagine and redo. Like I, I never saw myself as sewing clothes for my, you know, to make an income when I was in banking for 12 years. You know? You- they just didn’t have anything to do with each other.
Erin: But yeah
Maggie: I feel like being, having to reimagine and redo and, and, you know, unpack and repack and all these logistics is, like, what makes you a great entrepreneur is because you know how to pivot, you know how to turn, you know how to think outside the box. And, you know, we- I’ve talked to a couple of our members, our military [00:12:30] spouses, and it’s just not talked about enough how you guys are managing everything.
Maggie: I mean, the finances, the new schools, the family acclimating. So, like, thank you for your work. But also that you have to have this job that travels with you. So it’s not like, “Oh, I could be a teacher or stay at the bank,” or what it may be. Like, you have to get creative, and it sounds like it’s usually on a moment’s notice.
Maggie: You know? It’s not like, “Oh, in a couple years, let’s get you over here.” It’s like start packing. You’re already late.” You know?
Erin: That’s happened more times than I could admit. I mean, the first many moves as my husband [00:13:00] with his new career, it was all last minute. He never fulfilled his full term of where he was at. And, ’cause usually you know. You’re given, “Oh, you’ll be here for two years. You’ll be here for three years.”
Erin: And it never was that way. so you definitely have to learn to live on the edge of your seat and expect a phone call.
Kate: Yeah. I think it’s made us a little bit, like, fearless in a way too, especially, you know, like as Erin was talking about it, I was like, “Yeah, I mean, we have, we’ve pivoted.” We’ve been like, “This, this isn’t working. Like, let’s, we’re just gonna [00:13:30] try something else.” And I think it has made us not afraid of change ’cause we’re just, you know, we’re totally used to it.
Maggie: Almost consistency is scary.
Kate: Yeah. I know. My husband retired. Yeah. We’re not moving. And I’m like, “Wait, so how long are we gonna be in this house? Or do we stay here forever?” No one tells us. We just, “Okay, it’s up to… All right.” It is, it’s so weird. It’s a totally different mindset
Maggie: And so let’s kind of get back to then, you know, Little Blue Car and Little Blue Market. You know, most women don’t think, you know, their grocery [00:14:00] runs or their Amazon order as a financial decision with real consequences. So how do you help, like, everyday people see their spending differently? Because most of the times, again, they’re just kind of moms getting things done.
Maggie: You know? It’s just the stuff we do
Kate: One thing that we say is don’t be intimidated. Like, no one’s asking or expecting perfection tomorrow. Like, you’re, you’re not gonna wake up and be like, “Okay, today’s the day I shop with my values 100% of the time. My life is changing.” Like, that’s not [00:14:30] realistic. It’s not sustainable.
Kate:So we really say just start with one thing and be intentional about one thing. The next time you’re shopping for a kid’s birthday party, or you’re looking for a gift for a friend’s birthday or back to school, just think about one thing and where you can get it somewhere else. Like, whether it’s a farmer’s market or a local shop, or plan ahead and buy it online from a small business.
Kate: Come search Little Blue Cart for the thing that you’re trying to buy. But [00:15:00]just don’t, don’t let perfection be the enemy of good. Just start with one thing and then as soon as you think intentionally about one purchase, it will start to become a habit the next time you’re looking for household items, groceries.
Kate:Those things really are like the, you know, the big three that we spend money on. You know, groceries, household goods. And if you can start making swaps for those things one at a time, it really will add up to a big difference. And thinking about the grocery store if any– the last couple weeks has taught us anything, [00:15:30] it’s that where you get your groceries and who provides them and who, where the sources of things can really have a big impact, not just politically, but on your health.
Kate: So these are political decisions every time you spend your money, whether it’s on lettuce or a candle or, you know, books for back to school or a backpack. And, but really the thing we just try and repeat over and over again is You don’t have to be perfect. We’re not perfect. No one is expecting, like, tomorrow you’re gonna have 100%, like buying record.
Kate: But [00:16:00] just be intentional and take the extra time. It’s so convenient. That’s why, that’s why they make so much money. They make it incredibly convenient, incredibly fast, But there’s a cost to that too. So, just be in-intentional and, you know, take a beat and think about where you could make swaps.
Erin: Yes. And like Kate said, nobody expects perfection. It can seem overwhelming when you are looking at this like, ” Oh my gosh, I go to Walmart every day and I get a specific brand because I really like it,” and they donate to [00:16:30] the Republican Party, or they’ve donated to Trump’s re-election campaign, or whatever it is that, that we know that has been done.
Erin: But it… that can be overwhelming, and so that can stop a lot of people from even trying. But we just encourage folks to take it one product at a time. Just when you think about something that you enjoy that you’re not necessarily committed to on a specific product or, you know, a label, check it out. Do we have everything on [00:17:00] the directory and the market that, that would cover all your bases?
Erin: Absolutely not. Do we expect to have that eventually? Absolutely. That is the goal. wanna be able to give people options. And we do it ourselves. We peruse and go shopping when we are allowing people to get onto the directory and the market. Like, we go through their stuff and we’re like, “Oh my gosh,” and we just start adding to our list of what we’re gonna buy ourselves, or we send gifts between each other as gifts to our family [00:17:30] and just buy each other or buy ourselves things.
Erin: I have found some great products on there that I will always be customers of. yeah, it’s… And a big misnomer people have as well is that doing… shopping your values costs more money, and that’s not necessarily the case. So we encourage folks to, to try it out, look to see what, what there is to offer.
Erin: No, we don’t have free shipping. Some people do, [00:18:00] depending on how much you spend, but this is not Amazon Amazon created a platform that rewarded big corporations to sell in volume and they’ve made deals with, you know, those shipping services, and they also undercut small businesses that are on there.
Erin: Small businesses don’t get the same percentage of the dollars sold that they do if they sell from their own website or if they sell on Little Blue Cart or Little Blue Market. So it’s very different. It’s… Yes, you can support small [00:18:30] businesses on those other platforms, but that doesn’t mean that the person that you’re shopping from is getting the same, same dollar amount from them, so.
Maggie: I get how overwhelming it can be, of course, you know? And so there is a little bit more thinking ahead, but you do think of something like Amazon. I mean, you hear about their workers who also are, like,
Maggie: peeing in water bottles ’cause they don’t get a break. You know what I mean? Like, it’s, besides just the business, it’s the way they treat their employees, the economic standpoint, you know.
Maggie: Like, it’s not always good for the streets and getting there that fast and having all these deliveries. Like, it’s a [00:19:00] multiple touchpoint issue. And so sometimes when you’re, you know, you might not wanna shop at the store, but then you look at the product as well, which might not be great, which is, like, overwhelming sometimes but also can be empowering.
Maggie: And so I loved, like, of course, I was shopping on your site, ’cause hello. And, you know, I was, like, loving the backpacks. You guys have all the back to school stuff. But then you had, like, these back to school kits, which I thought was really interesting because I was like, at the end of the day, it’s always Elmer’s glue, some colored pencils, and some notebooks, right?
Maggie: Like, how unique can [00:19:30] we get? But then it was the fact that if you bought it, they’ll start donating back to schools and donating back to these other things. And so you’re like, “Ah, that’s where this change is also coming from.” So it’s not just, yes, you know, they’re making Elmer’s glue in a better factory, like, glue’s glue, but, you know, how else can we help the community, which I love to see.
Maggie: Because sometimes you think it’s the same thing anywhere, but it’s not
Kate: Right. Yeah. And to bring that point home, the 68 cents of [00:20:00] every dollar you spend locally stays in your community versus Amazon, where you’re not benefiting your community shopping Amazon. So when you shop small businesses or shop local businesses, that money stays and does go into like your schools and, and the resources where you live.
Kate: And to your point, like talking about to school, we have made a real effort to gather all those resources to make it easy to find alternatives. And right, the woman who sells her small business sells school supply kits, so you can [00:20:30] go on and buy an entry, elementary school supply kit, and you know you’re gonna get the basics.
Kate: You’re gonna get folders of s- notebook, crayons glue, and it’s… You’re benefiting a small businesswoman whose values align with yours instead of Jeff Bezos. Like, it’s pretty easy decision to make. Not to mention, it’s super convenient ’cause she already just buys all the things on the kit and sends it to you.
Kate: Yeah. And then you’re done. And one of the cool things about us specifically only allowing [00:21:00] vendors who share our values and, you know, and we call ’em values, not like political opinions. These really are values issues about you know, equality and inclusion and bodily autonomy, and that no human is illegal.
Kate: Like, we consider pretty basic things that we all agree on. Our sellers are so, so, committed to their communities. They give back to their local communities. They donate to criminal justice organizations. They donate to immigrant organizations in their community. So it [00:21:30] really is like a multi-level of good stuff.
Kate: Like, you can feel really good about shopping the people on Little Blue Cart and Little Blue Market because they are good people. And they are, you know, their small business is rooted in being a good, decent human being. So we can’t think of anybody better to spend your money with.
Maggie: Okay, so a couple quick questions. Is there, like, one thing that you’ve stopped buying since you’ve started Little Blue Cart?
Erin: Oh, I mean, I don’t shop Target at all. Like, not at [00:22:00] all. That was an easy one. I just canceled my Amazon subscription. I’m not a big spender, so it’s not… It wasn’t really a hard thing. But I just make intentional shopping now. I, I don’t find it hard. I am, I have you know, my husband, he’ll just say, you know, “Oh,” you know, “I was, I would like more soap.
Erin: Can you just check to see if there’s anything that has this scent or this scent?” You know, that he likes. And so That’s what we do. We just, we shop the [00:22:30] directory, and we shop the market first now.
Kate: And yeah, I’m the same way. I avoid Amazon, don’t shop at Target, and Target used to be my happy place, and I was like, “Oh my… I can’t.” Like this, what a sacrifice. Like gold star for me, I am stopping. It’s actually really easy it turns out. Like, it just was a decision, and that was that. You know, I used to go just to go, right?
Kate: And I would get a coffee, and I would walk around, and next thing you know, I spent $150 on stuff I didn’t need. And it was, it was [00:23:00] just a habit. And as soon as I made the decision, like their values no longer align with mine, this is not a good use of my money I just look for better places to spend it.
Kate: And now you can fill up your cart or your wishlist on Little Blue Market, and it’s a lot more fun. But I was intentional about Christmas last year. This was before Little Blue Market was up, and I bought like all the Christmas presents through vendors and sellers on Little Blue cart. And it meant I got creative, and it was kind of fun.
Kate: Like I bought my sister a box of beef. A family box [00:23:30] of like had ground beef, steaks. Like, all… no, she has four grandkids. I know she’s like, she’s a great chef. I know she’s always, you know, she likes to give them great food. And I was like, ” She’ll actually really enjoy this.” And I know it’s this small family farm in Iowa, like I can think of nothing better to get her.
Kate: It was so fun. I think I got her some jewelry and some other fun stuff for her too. But you know, there just so many ways and so many businesses to So, so many that it really, it’s j- it’s, you know, it’s fun too.
Erin: And [00:24:00] service-based
Erin: too. We have attorneys, we have real estate agents, we have hair stylists, we have massage therapists, we have mental therapists. I mean, we have so many service-based businesses on there as well. So we would love more. I mean, they’re… we’re not everywhere in every city we wanna be, so that we can be the number one resource for people that have shared values to be able to have, you know, people support, support them as well, so.
Erin: But yeah, we have a whole bunch of [00:24:30] businesses on there that, that absolutely deserve our support
Maggie: It’s so funny that you mentioned therapists, ’cause when I found a new therapist, I wanted to be like, ” Can I ask you some questions about your beliefs? ‘Cause otherwise, like, I don’t know if I really wanna take your advice,” you know? And like, they’re not always open like that. They’re always like, “Well, what, why does this matter?”
Maggie: You know? And I’m like, “It does. Like, it d- does to me.” So when people want to put their product or their service on your platform, do they pay a fee for that or do they go through a vetting process? Or what’s kind of that process there if listeners, you know, [00:25:00] have a product that maybe they wanna add to Little Blue Cart?
Erin: That’s a fantastic question. so Little Blue Cart is completely free. And they fill out an application online, and it explains who they are, their business, all the information that we need to, to be able to do some deep diving. And if they want to be able to have their listing on faster, ’cause it’s, you know, it’s a process, it takes us time, it’s just Kate and I, despite the emails, and I just absolutely love the email, ” I would like to speak to Kate Nairn.”
Erin: You got [00:25:30] her, ’cause it’s just us two. But yeah, so you fill out all the information. If you would like to have, like, come on faster, or if you would like to have a video embedded in your listing, if you would like to have your socials linked on there, we just ask for uh, it’s $25 to have socials, and then $50, and then you have it featured, your listing featured on the front of the directory for 30 days.
Erin: It’s a one-time fee. There are no other fees. Like, it, there… You could be on the directory [00:26:00] and be completely free, and you get just as much love and attention. We try to feature as many different types of businesses. At random times, Kate does a really, really good job of doing, like, feature posts with like-minded businesses so that we can get the word out there.
Kate: Yeah. So if you’re already on it’s a really quick approval process ’cause we know that your values align with ours. But yeah, it’s sort of the same. We just check out make sure everything you know, that we don’t see any red flags on your socials or websites or anything.
Kate: And we also ask [00:26:30] both on the Cart and on the Market for the vendors and sellers and businesses have to agree to our community guidelines and ethics, which is basically our value statement. And it’s like I mentioned before, it’s really just human rights, human value. You know, that we all, we just have a sense of shared value and to join our community.
Kate: So it’s a really self-selecting audience, and that’s been great. And I mean, we really have just found the most wonderful small businesses. But yeah, then to sell on the Market, there is a one-time fee. We don’t charge listing fees. [00:27:00] We don’t charge you know, a recurring fee every month or every quarter, every year.
Kate: It’s a one-time fee to help us, to pay us to help you set up on the platform. And then there are different tiers, so you can pay a one-time fee, you know, depending on how many products you wanna list, and then that’s it. And we take a commission from you know, a small portion of every sale, and we really just do our best to try and get people over there to shop.
Kate: So, the best part of it has been finding all these wonderful small business [00:27:30] owners that now are really helping us build a, a sense of community. I think that was something we didn’t anticipate, but really how cool the, the networking has become and the…
Kate: One of the coolest things is when one small business will hire another one or buy from another one and, you know, just seeing those connections being made, and we’re trying to be more intentional about making them and, and really building a sense of community for everyone who does join.
Maggie: I could see so much community being built and just talking about owning a small business and ups and downs and all those things is, as an entrepreneur, [00:28:00] it’s great to have that community to kind of lean on as well. And I’m sure you guys are ordering so many items. I’d be like, “Well, I have to try their candles before I post them.”
Maggie: Like, it would be dangerous in my own way. I’m supporting, what can I say?
Kate: Like, yes. That is the worst part is wanting to buy all the things. But now that I’m not shopping at Target, we have this, you know, little extra money to buy. I got a delivery today from skincare refills that showed up today, so yeah.
Maggie: I love it. And so for, like a little action item, you know, for someone who’s [00:28:30] listening who wants to make more intentional purchasing choices but doesn’t know where to start, what’s like one or two steps they can take this week?
Erin: Visit littlebluecart.com and littlebluemarket.com. And market has a great search feature. It’s just like you would expect on any type of marketplace. Just type something in that you’re looking to shop for. You can shop by category too. You don’t have to be super specific, and you might find something else there that you weren’t otherwise looking for.
Erin: It- we have artists on there ar- you know, artwork different time, whether it [00:29:00] be pet portraits or, you know, a family portraits. Yeah, just go through there. The directory operates like a, a Yellow Pages. I don’t know if anybody’s familiar with- ……those really work. But you you know, you look by category.
Erin: If the name of the business was in the name of the, you know, where they put it online as the name, it… You just type that in if you know that it’s on there. Sometimes people will put, like hairdresser, and so you can type in hairdresser, so if it was in the name of their business, it’ll pull up by that.
Erin:[00:29:30] But you can shop by state and help support people and keep your money within your state. We are going to eventually be able to add it to where people can shop by city. our focus has been on the marketplace to get that off, running smoothly and so that we can take some time and refocus it on the directory.
Erin: We never expected it to be this way. We just… Me, let me just say, I thought it was gonna be more of just, like, a, a spreadsheet kind of thing, like, you know, in cute font on the site possibly, [00:30:00] and Kate was like, “Nah, that’s not how we’re doing this.”
Maggie: We’re dreaming bigger, girl
Erin: Oh yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So, you know, she created the first website by herself.
Erin: was pretty incredible. I mean, I was just in awe. I I was her biggest fan through this whole thing. I was just like, “Hey, this is amazing. This is amazing. Can we do this and can we do that?” And she, you know, she would just do her little research and so that’s how we ended up with both the marketplace and the directory.
Erin: It’s just, natural growth. You know, when you start… Anybody that starts a business, they start out with one product. They start [00:30:30] out with one service, and then somebody says, “Hey, can you do X, Y, or Z?” And you’re like, “I think I can do that.” And so, you know, out of Little Blue Cart came Little Blue Market because people wanted to be able to shop directly from these same businesses
Maggie: I love it. And so before we log off, there is a question that we like to ask all of our guests, and I would love for both of you guys to answer, is what does financial freedom look like to you?
Erin: Financial freedom for me, is very centered around Little Blue Cart because that is exactly how this whole thing [00:31:00] started. And I would find financial freedom knowing that the businesses that are on the platforms are successful. That’s really, really important for me. I get
Erin: very, like, they, they’re like my friends, you know? And, and these people, we don’t communicate a lot. it’s just because they don’t need to. They’re, they’re busy working. But I take a sense of responsibility to help them as much as we possibly can. And so my success would just be that they are successful, that they are [00:31:30] able to pay their power bill, that they keep their rent payment, they can keep their food on the table, they can, you know, help their kids be prepared for school.
Erin: Those are successes that I find as our measurable sense of success for Little Blue Cart
Maggie: I love it. And Kate, how about financial freedom? What does that look like for you?
Kate: Well, I echo and ditto to everything Erin said on the business side. And then I think personally, and it’s probably could speak for both of us, it’s to say that not necessarily like accumulate some certain amount in our, you [00:32:00] know, savings account, but it’s having enough freedom to have agency over where we spend our money.
Kate: And just, you know, having that control and having enough resources to pick the, most values aligned every time. I think that would be freedom, not being locked into spending my money with someone who I don’t agree with and who I think is, you know, putting my money towards really terrible causes or principles.
Erin: We would also like to be able to hire people, ’cause
Erin: Lord knows when we think [00:32:30] that there’s a team behind Little Blue Cart and Little Blue Market, we would like for people to know that there really is a team behind So it would be nice to be able to hire somebody that can do some things for us to help us grow our community.
Maggie: I love that. Well, we’re gonna make it happen. We’re gonna get Little Blue Cart out there, and you’re gonna have a whole new group of shoppers, ’cause we ladies, we do love to shop. So we appreciate you coming on, you know, actually building this company, ’cause I know so many people who align with this and having this opportunity a- for us to shop with our values.
Maggie: And, you know, we know [00:33:00] spending is, you know, kind of voting with our values. And so, we appreciate all this work and sharing your message. And I can’t wait till our community gets to hear this. So thank you.
Net Worth Is Not Self Worth with Elizabeth Husserl
You can look successful on paper and still feel like it is never enough.
In this episode, we have Elizabeth Husserl, a sought-out speaker, entrepreneur, registered investment advisor, mother and cofounder of Peak360, a boutique wealth planning firm. She expertly guides people to a deeper understanding of their relationship to money and wealth. But more than anything, she is a thought leader at the intersection of psychology and money. Her debut book, The Power of Enough: Finding Joy in Your Relationship with Money, is a paradigm- shifting exploration that invites readers to redefine success, loosen the emotional grip of traditional financial beliefs, and build a more joyful, self-aligned relationship with wealth.
Why do so many women feel financially insecure even when the numbers look good on paper? Because we measure wealth mentally but experience it physically. We hit the metrics and the goalpost moves. The missing piece is learning to actually feel wealthy in your body, not just know it in your head.
What is the wealth mandala and how do you use it? It is a circle with twelve human needs like health, connection, freedom, and purpose. You rate each one from one to ten and color it in. Then you look at your whole life like a flower and see where your time and resources actually need to go.
What is the difference between money, wealth, and power? Money is a tool. Wealth is a state of wellbeing where your human needs are being met. Power is the agency to design your own life. None of them are the same thing and only one of them lives in your bank account.
What is satiation and why does it matter more than gratitude? Gratitude is a heart experience. Satiation is a body experience. It is that feeling when a meal truly hits the spot. Elizabeth says we need to bring that same felt sense of enough into our financial lives, not just think it, feel it.
How do you define enough when the world keeps telling you it is never enough? Start by feeling what enough actually feels like before you take it to a spreadsheet. Then do the math in five-year segments. And compound your moments of meaning the same way you compound interest.
Join us for next week’s Money Talks, “Your Complete Financial Protection Plan: Estate, Insurance & Investments Simplified” Most women have one of the three dialed in. Fewer have all of them. We’re laying out exactly what you need to protect what you’ve built, grow it intentionally, and make sure it goes where you want it to go. Click here to registerfor FREE and bring your questions!
Have questions? Click this to check out our expert Q&A for tips from industry experts, tailored to help women address their most common financial concerns.
Subscribe to our newsletter to receive financial tips delivered weekly here!
Barbara Provost, EdD and Maggie Nielsen, MBA are the co-founders of Purse Strings, a national platform helping women make confident financial decisions by connecting them with vetted financial professionals who truly understand women’s lives and money needs. Purse Strings connects women across the U.S. with vetted financial professionals who specialize in supporting women through divorce, money transitions, and financial independence.
Full Episode Transcript
(This transcript was generated using AI, so please excuse any misspellings or errors)
PS: Elizabeth Husserl (MP3)
Maggie:[00:00:00] I was having a conversation with somebody this morning who was talking about how they’re gonna do the Coast FIRE movement, which I have to look into a bit more. I think it’s more on you have enough money for retirement, and so all your retirement is funded, and so then you are just making money to live your everyday life.
Maggie: So it’s less about having those investments now. It’s all your investments are made. But you know, FIRE is financial independence, retire early. And, there’s always a number you wanna get to and all of these different [00:00:30] things, which is really great for some people and quite an accomplishment. But it’s a lot of pressure, and I think, if you’re not in that bucket, then it’s kind of like, ah, well, it’s you’re not doing enough or, or being enough and all these different things.
Maggie: And so I’m excited about this conversation and to share it with the audience today, just because our author wrote a book about, called The Power of Enough, and really how money is, is one tool but there are so many other things in [00:01:00] life. And so she has this wealth mandala that is really, a framework of ways we can start kind of looking at our wealth.
Maggie: And yes, our money bucket might be doing really good, but how is, our touch? How is our connection? How is our health? How are these different things that all tie in? And I think this is such an important view to take as we’re so just told, retirement, investments doing these FIRE movements of retiring early and not having to think about our money again.
Maggie:[00:01:30] But wealth is so much more than that. And it’s one of those things, we focus so much on wealth until we don’t have our health, and then health becomes everything. And so how do we look at this as a holistic picture of all these moving parts together and hit success? is it gonna be, by the time we’re 35?
Maggie: Maybe, maybe not, but it’s something that’s ever-moving. And so I just love the view that it’s not about retiring and hitting that goal right away as fast as we can, but really having this holistic experience and being [00:02:00] satiated in all these ways. So here’s the podcast we have for today with Elizabeth, and I can’t wait to hear your thoughts, so let’s get started.
[00:02:30]
Maggie: Elizabeth, we are so excited to have you on the podcast today. I don’t know if you know that we saw you speak at the keynote speaker at the WIFS conference. and I got your book and read it, and so I was so excited to have you on the podcast today and introduce you to our audience.
Maggie: So before we dive into this great [00:03:00] conversation, can you share a little bit of who you are and what you do?
Elizabeth: Yes, of course, Maggie. I’m so touched that you all saw me at WIFS. So my name is Elizabeth Hustrul. I am a wealth advisor. I’m a co-founder of a boutique firm here in the Bay Area called Peak 360 Wealth Management, but author, mom ritualist. I mean, I feel like I live life to the fullest, but I’ve been exploring the intersection of money, finance, psychology, and spirituality since I was 18 years old.
Elizabeth: So this is my passion and my path
Maggie:[00:03:30] I love it. Yeah, and there’s so much goodness to share here because I love how you really work on kind of separating, like, wealth and, and having enough, and really your book of The Power of Enough. So kind of to start out, so many women look successful on paper but still feel insecure. Why do you think this is happening?
Maggie: I mean, the numbers add up, so why aren’t we feeling, good? Isn’t hasn’t that been our goal?
Elizabeth: Well, so I think it’s really, you know, I actually, I feel chills when you ask that question, Maggie, ’cause I think it really comes to the core of the fact [00:04:00] that I think we experience wealth differently than men. And I use that word intentionally, experience, ’cause part of why I wrote the book is because in my decades of working with people, I realized that we don’t talk enough about the somatic component of wealth, right?
Elizabeth: Where it’s like, do I feel wealthy? Am I experiencing wealth, right? Do I feel enough? All these things. I look at my body as I even say that, right? I’m like, ” Do I feel big in myself?” And I think that’s the, the issue is that money feels so abstract, and [00:04:30] it’s so mental that I think it’s really important that we do the analysis around the money game.
Elizabeth: There are studies out there that say women have less in retirement ’cause we don’t take enough risk. All of that is valid, and the financial literacy is widely important. I think equally important is as we accumulate financial resources, are we doing the important work of understanding what it means to feel wealthy? And that’s why there’s a big component in the book around satiation and [00:05:00] feeling satisfied and the somatic and visceral component of like, “Oh my gosh, can I pause for a moment? Can I literally consume a moment of meaning and a moment of celebration and a moment of success that I personally identify as successful,” right?
Elizabeth: Not that someone tells me, “Hey, you met this metrics. Amazing. Good job.” But it’s more like, “No, I rocked it. I felt that moment of success. Can I just pause for a second, close my eyes, and let every cell in my body feel wealthy?” And if we start to do that more, [00:05:30] Maggie, alongside looking at our statements and looking at our investments and savings, we would start to shift our experience of wealth.
Elizabeth: It’s kinda like we would go to the money gym and build these muscles where I know I’m worthy. I know I’m wealthy. I know I’m enough. And I’m like, “Oh my God,” it just makes me excited because I’m like, the world would be so different if we lived from that place
Maggie: It really would. And it’s funny that you use the word, like, satiated. Like, I’ve never heard that used really outside of, like, a meal. You know what I [00:06:00] mean? Of, like, feeling satiated. it is kind of that same feeling. And every time, I mean, I feel like a lot of women can relate to this, of, like, you do something and you’ve, you’ve wanted it, you’ve worked for it, you’ve envisioned it, and once you have it, you’re like, “Okay, onto the next.” You know? And it’s, and you didn’t take that moment.
Elizabeth: Yes, ’cause that, I mean, there’s like, there’s a whole book, there’s so many books written about that. The other one that I really love, The Psychology of Money, right, is he talks about that, that the goalpost keeps on moving. And whose fault is that? Ours. Right?
Elizabeth: And I think this is a really [00:06:30] important piece, Maggie. I think women understand relationships, right? And our relationship to money is a relationship, right? And a lot of times we scapegoat money for things that aren’t going right in our lives. And I’m the first one to say, “Hey, we need to take responsibility for how we’re creating those patterns.”
Elizabeth: So literally, I mean, if you were just like… if you’re listening to this, just stop for a second and be like, “Huh, what’s the last goalpost that I actually stopped and celebrated?” Right? And so that I actually took in and [00:07:00] celebrated with my community, whatever that looks like. Because those are the moments, I mean, again, I’m not 90, but I can imagine those are the moments that I wanna review when I’m older to be like, “Huh, did I actually pause and smell the roses?”
Elizabeth: That what, that’s what we’re talking about. And it’s funny that you love the word satiation, ’cause I went back and forth with my husband on it. He’s like, “Elizabeth, why this word?” I’m like, “Why are you hanging your shingle on this word?” I’m like, “Babe, because it really brings home this, this visceral experience of wealth that we don’t talk [00:07:30] about.”
Elizabeth: We talk about gratitude, right? And gratitude is an antidote to scarcity. It’s really important to be grateful. But for me, gratitude is a heart experience. Satiation is a body experience. And a lot of what I talk about in the book is how do we make wealth, not just in our mental sphere, because it feels too abstract, like let’s do the analysis, let’s make sure we’re looking, but how do we bring it to the heart through gratitude and how do we bring it to the body through satiation?
Elizabeth: And to your point, Maggie, a meal is the best metaphor because, like, we all know [00:08:00] what it feels like when that meal hit the spot. Like it was nourishing, it was warm, or, I mean, we’re, it’s cold. It’s been raining here, so for me a, a warm meal today is like amazing. But it just hits the spot and like time stops and you’re like, ” I didn’t count calories.
Elizabeth: I didn’t… like, I just enjoyed it.” And so that’s the same concept to bring to your money life. What are those moments that you just enjoyed the success? Sometimes it means doing the hard thing, writing the hard email, firing the client, hiring the client. Whatever [00:08:30] it is, take the moment to recognize that just like as if you’re tracking a spreadsheet.
Maggie: Yeah. And, and what came up for me is when you were saying that is like, when you really stopped, enjoyed it with your community, we do that at these milestones that I don’t always love, which is like a bachelorette party, a wedding, a baby shower, and a funeral, but we do so many more things in our lives than just those where we get our community together and celebrate.
Maggie: And so I think we need to bring that into, our financial [00:09:00] goals, our business goals, our health goals, and really bring the community around too
Elizabeth: Yeah, and if I were to give you a very specific example, right? I published my book a year ago, and I remember my book coach, before the book came out, and she asked me, “What are your metrics of success?” Which I was like, “Oh, I’m so glad she asked me,” right? ‘Cause, you know, I can’t tell you how many people are like, “Oh, the box of books arrives, you do the unveiling video for Instagram, and then it’s anticlimactic.”
Elizabeth: And I’m like, “Okay, I don’t wanna do that,” even though I did do my video [00:09:30] ’cause it was fun. But I was like, “Huh, for me, the metrics of success is to throw a dance party where I celebrate with my loved ones who have seen me work really hard writing this book.” And she’s like, “Do it.” I’m like, “Really? It doesn’t have to be in a bookstore?”
Elizabeth: She’s like, “No, throw the dance party.” I was like, “Okay.” And so I threw… So it’s ki- so imagine kinda wedding style, like, I did a buy-out at a local restaurant. I invited 160 people, clients, friends book coaches, like, whoever helped [00:10:00] me along. It was gonna be expensive, so I sold tickets on Eventbrite ’cause I was like, “I financed half of it.”
Elizabeth: I’m like, “People want to celebrate and support me,” so they bought a ticket. And it was so freaking fun, Maggie, that that is the highlight. When I look back at my publishing moment, that was the highlight because I felt supported, seen, and celebrated, right? And so, and, that was kind of one of the last times that I saw my dad before he passed, and I’m so grateful that I got to create that experience that he got to [00:10:30] participate in.
Elizabeth: So that’s just one example where it’s out of the box, right? I don’t know many authors who throw celebratory dance parties. That’s what I wanted to do, and so it’s more like that. What are those milestones that are so important to you? How do you take the moment to celebrate the wins and embody the wins?
Maggie: I love that, and I love a dance party, and it’s like, it’s not like, “Oh, I threw a dance party in my kitchen.” You know what I mean? Like no, we’re going all out. We’re doing the thing.
Elizabeth: DJ.
Elizabeth: Yeah.
Maggie: and you know everybody else remembers that too, so it’s a [00:11:00] great experience for everyone. So you talk about this idea that money, wealth, and power are not the same.
Maggie: Can you kind of break down your definition for these for us?
Elizabeth: Yeah. so, money is a tool, and we’ve heard that a lot, right? And it’s talked about on this podcast a lot. Money is a tool. It’s a resource that we can use to satisfy different needs. Wealth is a state of wellbeing, right? So I th- I’m gonna start with those two first, right? So wealth is much more broader, and the way that I define wealth [00:11:30]in my book is it’s a state of wellbeing where our human needs are being met, and this is really important.
Elizabeth: Our human needs are universal, and so I like to tell people, “Throw this idea of neediness out the window.” We have needs, and the way we satisfy our needs is unique and personal. So that’s really key because if you’re thinking through these human needs, which is financial stability, safety, physical health, freedom, purpose, understanding, participation, connection, curiosity, leisure, touch, right?
Elizabeth:And I [00:12:00]leave a space on the wealth mandala to add to that maybe I didn’t say, but get clear on what your needs are. Get clear on how you satisfy them, and I like to tell people each need should be satisfied with both monetary and non-monetary ways. And that’s where then money has a role. It’s a tool that if you’re satisfying a need, for example, a need for connection, monetary is like, I like to go have dinner with my friends once a month.
Elizabeth:I spend money. But a non-monetary strategy for connection is like, but guess what? I also [00:12:30]like to take hikes. That doesn’t cost anything. So I meet a friend for a hike, and I connect that way. And so notice how then money takes a I don’t wanna say smaller, but, like, it’s a more specific role in how we create wealth.
Elizabeth: Wealth is a state of wellbeing that comes out in our ability to satisfy our needs. So let me just pause there before I add in power. Like, any questions there?
Maggie: It just makes a lot of sense and it kinda reminds me of, like everyone’s working towards money until you don’t have your health, and then you’re like, “Damn, I need to [00:13:00] go get my health back.” And, and it’s these, you know, until you’re alone, and then you’re like, “I need community.” And so it is kinda, then those are the times when you don’t have ’em, you kinda see how that whole picture works together
Elizabeth: Totally. And we live in a culture that we’re so freaking focused on the financial stability slice of the pie. and don’t get me wrong, if that financial slice of the pie is on fire, right, we gotta address it. Like, I live in California. Literally, I’ve had clients whose house has gotten burned down, right?
Elizabeth: Like, that house can be on fire, when things [00:13:30] happen to our home, when we lose our job, if there’s a death. And even if we have a baby, we’re like, “Ah!” Like, that’s changing, right? So my job as a wealth and financial advisor is to help clients keep this house in check and to be nimble when change happens.
Elizabeth: but I tell all my clients, my job is only half done with that. My job as a wealth advisor is to make sure we’re having conversations simultaneously in all of these other areas, ‘ cause if we’re not being mindful in how we address these other areas, we’re actually not building a true [00:14:00] wealth portfolio.
Elizabeth: And so I think, I wrote the book and I, I feel like I have something to contribute to my field, is because I think we’re doing ourselves a disservice when we keep the, the vision of wealth so narrowly focused to financial stability. I think if we raise our gaze and be like, “Oh my gosh, wealth is so many more things,” then we start to feel wealthier without needing to add a dime to our bank account, and that is empowering.
Elizabeth: So let’s go to the empowering question. Like, what is power, [00:14:30] right? Power, for me, is, is vitality, is our ability to be connected to that source of life, right? To feel agency in how we design our lives, right? To feel agency in how I engage in relationships. And so if I detach and decouple power from money, I can start to experience different sources of power as I satisfy my needs, maybe in my relationships, maybe in my understanding of the world, maybe my creative contributions.
Elizabeth:[00:15:00] I can feel powerful even as money fluctuates. ‘Cause the reality is that anyone who tracks the stock market, some days it’s up, some days it’s down. And so I need to decouple my experience of power from money’s cyclical nature, right? And I think that is just kind of Relationships 101. I gotta break that codependency of money defining my sense of wealth or money defining my sense of power
Maggie: Yeah, I love that. And I, [00:15:30] I kinda wanna go into that, that wealth mandala because I find the, a lot of advisors that we work with here at Purse Strings do have more of that holistic view. And there’s a lot of advisors who say, like, “I do holistic planning,” which is different than what we’re talking about here, which is really this holistic view.
Maggie: And I think a lot of clients are like, “Well, no, I talk to them about insurance and 401s. That’s what they’re there for.” But this position is really changing of yes, and we talk about all these other things. And I know when you were [00:16:00] presenting, you had the story, and we don’t have to go through the whole story, but, like, one of the takeaways was, like, he should probably get back into therapy for trauma, and, like, they need to go on dates more, and this is how money should be spent, is on those two things, like, to deepen that wealth.
Maggie: And so, I would love to dive more into this because your role as an advisor is so much bigger now than just stocks and bonds and insurance,
Elizabeth: oh, 100%, and I love that you bring this up, Maggie, ’cause I also cringe. Like, I can’t tell you how many presentations I sit through, and everyone’s like, “Holistic wealth plan.” [00:16:30] And I’m like, “What are they gonna show me,” right? And to your point, we’re like, “In addition to our brokerage accounts, we do do 401s, and insurance, and estate planning, and TPA.”
Elizabeth: For me, all of that still fits within the financial stability slice of the pie, and so I’m glad that there’s diversification in the financial stability slice of the pie. But for me, the holistic view is like, what? Like, it’s like, let’s just take the time to talk about as a culture, what is wealth, right?
Elizabeth: And I’m like, if, if that’s what the listeners walk away with, like, huh, like, am I drinking [00:17:00] the Kool-Aid of what the external world defines wealth compared to what my experience of wealth is? Like, just start to question that. So what you’re making reference to is that I sit down, and I use this wealth mandala tool, which is free on my website.
Elizabeth: Go to my website afterwards and download it, right? You don’t even have to read the book, although the book help, helps to kinda understand how to use it. But it’s totally free. I work with all my clients, this is our Q1 meeting, right? Before we jump into cash flow or tax planning or anything, I always say, “I need to know what your wealth mandala looks like for the year.”
Elizabeth:[00:17:30] It changes every year, much like a wealth, an investment statement changes every year. So think of asset diversification, right? When I’m in– creating an investment for a client, I’m thinking of asset classes, right? Stocks, bonds, small, large, mid-cap, da, da, da, da, da, international. And so the same thing is the wealth mandala.
Elizabeth: It is literally a circle with the 12 needs and a space for you to add a need if I didn’t, if you’re like, “Oh, I’m not feeling fully reflected.” Great, add yours. Like, be co-creative. And then what I tell people is that on a [00:18:00] scale of one to ten, how fulfilled are you feeling in this need, right? And so for, for example, financial stability.
Elizabeth: I feel gainfully employed, I can pay my bills, I’m saving, no big issues there. Maybe it’s a nine out of ten, or like, “Oh my God, I just lost my job.” It might be a two. So you do that for each need. At phys– in physical health, right? Oh my gosh, I’m working too much, never working out. Mm, maybe if I’m honest, it’s a three, right?
Elizabeth: Or connection. I haven’t seen my friends in forever. Or understanding. [00:18:30] What the hell is happening with politics today, right? Like, you can go through all of the different needs, put the number, and literally I have people color it in, right? And so you color it all the way to the edge if it’s fully satisfied.
Elizabeth: You color just a little bit if it’s a one, two, or a three. And then I tell people, “Maggie, take a step back and just look at your wealth portfolio as if it were a flower.” And I always tell people, try to be non-judgmental when you look at it, right? [00:19:00] Because a flower’s never fully in bloom. Like, some petals are out, some petals…
Elizabeth: But we love flowers. We think they’re beautiful in their organic state. So look at your wealth mandala in its organic state, and just start to see what reflections you see. You’re like, “Huh, I didn’t think that need was so under-met.” That is fascin I’ve been putting off physical health too long or connection or curiosity too long.
Elizabeth: And guess what? My financial stability slice of the pie actually feels pretty full. How about I [00:19:30] focus attention, time, and resources towards the other needs I need to meet? And when I do this with clients, especially clients who are financially stable and have a high level of assets, right? And r- this is really important.
Elizabeth: I try to steer away from the word net worth because I wanna decouple net worth and self-worth. So high level of assets in the financial stability slice of the pie, and I do this exercise, I’m often surprised where the 2s and the 3s slice. And [00:20:00] so the example I gave at the keynote talk was of a client who’s an executive C-suite at a pretty major tech company.
Elizabeth: We did this exercise. They do not need more salary, more RSU, more stock. But he was, I wanna say, a four or a five in touch, and they were expecting their second child, and his, like, face went white, and he’s like, “Oh my gosh, I don’t like to be touched, and that’s an issue when I have newborns, and I know where that’s coming from, right?
Elizabeth: It’s [00:20:30] coming from being raised with a, a mom who was emotionally unavailable, and I would cringe every time she’d walk into the room, and I wanna be a different parent. I don’t wanna cringe when my girls reach out for me.” And we just like, mic drop. We just pause for a second, recognize how vulnerable that was, and be like, “Okay, great.
Elizabeth: This year we’re going to channel resources towards working either with a grief group, with a therapeutic group, with a men’s group, whatever you need. I’m not going [00:21:00] to be the person who facilitates that, but I can be a guide in helping you make the connection so that resources go towards what will actually address scarcity and that will actually add an enhanced sense of wealth.”
Maggie: Yeah. I mean, every time I hear that, I get goosebumps, and it’s so not a conversation you’d expect to have with your financial advisor. But when we’re so focused on money all the time, that connection with your children, I mean, I don’t have children, but I even know that’s like, [00:21:30] it’s priceless. like, oh my God, holding a newborn, like, there’s nothing I would love to do more.
Maggie: Like, and so you know how important that connection is and it’s something money, can’t buy, but we can buy the resources to help us get there. And so I just think that’s so impactful because it’s, it’s, we’ve gotta change the focus sometimes of more, more, more money when, that’s not really what’s depleting us right now.
Maggie: It shouldn’t be our focus
Elizabeth: No, and, and I think like, ’cause I can imagine lots of financial advisors listen to [00:22:00] this podcast. I know I do. I think it’s such a great one. ‘ Is like there’s a lot of financial advisors who use values exercises, right? or what I’m wanting to contribute to my field, and I’m like, “Oh, maybe I’ll record a little video on how to use this for financial advisors,” is this is a much more concrete way to talk about values and talk about the impact of living or not living into the values, right?
Elizabeth: ‘Cause sometimes, I mean, I’ve gone through my own values exercise, [00:22:30] and it still feels abstract unless I bring it to, well, how am I implementing strategies in my life, practices in my life? And so that’s where I was hoping that the wealth mandala exercise for people who just do it for themselves or financial advisors who use it for clients to really dig deep into how are we channeling resources to things that make us feel wealthier.
Maggie: Yeah, I think it’s a great tool for everyone just to kind of sit down and look at and just like you said, look at it non-judgmentally and see where you can even just boost things by [00:23:00] like one point. What would that look like if it’s hitting the gym or, or starting therapy or, meeting a girlfriend out for a hike?
Maggie: I mean, it can be really low-hanging fruit. We just have to make time for those things that get, we’re so good at laters. But sometimes, later’s too late
Elizabeth: Yeah, exactly. And it helps us take responsibility and be like, “Okay, maybe I don’t have money to put towards these needs, but it’s my responsibility as a human to figure out how to satisfy these needs in non-monetary ways.” Okay, that might be a little bit of a, [00:23:30] oddest pill to swallow, but once you do, that’s where you find agency, and that is how you build power.
Elizabeth: And I would say the other thing too, Maggie, like I use this with my family, like my family knows, my husband and my daughter, that every Valentine’s, this is the exercise we do. We have Valentine’s brunch. I cook them brunch, and I sit them down to do this exercise because, and we do it once a year, because I’ve learned so much about my teen, right?
Elizabeth: Like she did it, I was tickled to be like, “Okay, her financial stability and slice of– and safety slice of the pie are full.” I feel [00:24:00] very grateful. I don’t take that for granted. But her freedom was like a two, and I’m like, “Huh.” I’m like, “I don’t feel like I’m a strict parent. What’s this about?”
Elizabeth: And she’s like, “I wanna drive. I wanna go explore.” And I’m like– So she told me that when she was 14. I’m like, “Well, I can’t change the law. You’re not gonna get your license at 14. But I can teach you how to use public transportation,” right? “I can teach you how to get to a friend’s house without us.” And now that she’s– we’re literally a month away from her getting her license, [00:24:30] we just celebrate that freedom is around the corner.
Elizabeth: But it opened up a conversation that I would never have known, and I understand how that’s been impacting her experience of wealth. Fascinating.
Maggie: Yeah. I mean, that’s something I would have not even expected from a 14-year-old, but it makes so much sense, ’cause when you have to rely on someone to come home from work to drive you there, all the things, it’s, it’s frustrating.
Elizabeth: Yeah.
Maggie: And so I know you talk a bit about, like, resources and widening those resources and how they’re wider than wealth.
Maggie: Can you kind of talk a little bit more [00:25:00] about that?
Elizabeth: Yeah, and maybe my origin story I think is important to name is that when I graduated from my bachelor in economics, I went and lived and worked in Oaxaca, Mexico, for two years doing community economics program and teaching indigenous women how to create savings and loan cooperatives, which was an amazing project.
Elizabeth: But I think what was most impactful for me was just experiencing another experience of wealth, right? And so I would go to these indigenous villages thinking, “Okay, [00:25:30] I’m gonna be bringing and imparting all this knowledge and my tools,” et cetera. And I did, and they were super appreciative, but I was like, “Oh my gosh, they feel different than a textbook definition of what poverty looks like,” right?
Elizabeth: And I was like, “Yes,” maybe we got dirt floors going on, and yes, there could certainly be more financial resources that can support the community, but they felt wealthy. And I was like, “Oh my God, I’m twenty-four years old. This doesn’t make sense compared to what I was taught [00:26:00] economics and finance to be,” right?
Elizabeth: And I, and I’m Latina, and I’ve, traveled many countries in Latin America, so this wasn’t new, but I don’t think I had lived and experienced, I mean, a, an extended period of time. And I just started asking people, “How do you define wealth or riqueza in Spanish?” And their responses were immediate.
Elizabeth: Riqueza or wealth is health. It’s community. It’s our connection to spirit. It is are we celebrating with each other? Are we taking care of nature? [00:26:30] And again and again and again, and so for two years, I just kept having these conversations, Maggie. I was like, “Huh They define wealth and resources so differently, right?
Elizabeth: I was taught that economics was the allocation of scarce resources, right? So scarcity is embedded in the definition of economics. I remember that at 16, my first economics course. I was like, “Okay.” And I was like, “Huh, they don’t define it that way,” right? Your relationship to spirit, whatever that means to you, is not scarce, right?
Elizabeth: Your relationship to nature, yes, some natural [00:27:00] resources might be scarce. And so I think what it just helped me understand, Maggie, is that there are scarce resources, and there are not scarce resources or abundant resources. And we have to learn how to recognize the difference. We also have to learn to break our dependency on monetary resources and to recognize that there’s other resources like time, like creativity like friendships.
Elizabeth: There’s just so many, like resiliency, generosity, that we can use to [00:27:30] create our experience of wealth. So I would say for people just to pay attention of what are… maybe even stop for a second and ask yourself, “What are the resources outside of money that I have access to?” And I think when you start recognizing and making lists, you’re like, “Huh.
Elizabeth: Okay, let me be more aware of how I employ, utilize, save, give, receive, earn all these different resources.” And we start to widen our language and our concepts around economics and finance.
Maggie: When [00:28:00] you think that way, you feel so much lighter, I can just, like, feel it
Maggie: in my body, feeling lighter. I can feel in that community, like, it’s not, there’s not, like, the social media and all the things that I need to order these new leggings or this new brand or the stay in the latest and greatest.
Maggie: Like, that’s not the wealth, and that’s, it has, doesn’t have the value that we put on it, which is so a sigh of a relief almost, but having, that spiritual value, that community value, being on nature, touching grass, like, that’s what’s really important
Elizabeth: Yeah, and I would say to, [00:28:30] especially to our culture that is structured differently, we have immediate gratification. That’s okay. It’s like the therapist that says, “There’s the hole. You keep falling in the hole, one day you’ll walk around the hole.” So whatever, we keep falling in the hole. We keep ordering on Amazon.
Elizabeth: We keep ordering on Zappos. But beauty is that there’s also free returns, and so I tell people, even if you are in a pattern of ordering, and maybe you can’t stop that muscle ’cause it’s so ingrained, when you receive the package, pause for a second and be like, “Hmm, is this really gonna satiate me? Is it really gonna satisfy a need?
Elizabeth: Which need is it [00:29:00] gonna satisfy?” And you might be like, “Oh my God, amazing. It’s gonna satisfy my need for…” I’m trying to look at the needs. I’m like, physical health, right? I needed those weights or whatever. And if you’re like, “Oh my gosh, I can’t quite see what need it’s gonna satisfy, hmm, maybe I’m gonna just get in the car, go to UPS, and return it,” right?
Elizabeth: Give yourself grace to explore without judgment because these are new, new muscles that we’re building
Maggie: And that’s always the key, right? Is without judgment. It’s much easier said than done, but we say that a [00:29:30] lot, and it’s important just to talk to yourself like you talk to a friend, right? You would not say these things to her, so don’t say them to yourself.
Elizabeth: So two things, when you said that all of this conversation makes you feel lighter, like, I put the subtitle Finding Joy in Your Relationship to Money on purpose. I do believe we can find joy here, right? We can make it fun and lighter.
Elizabeth: But the other thing too is that I wrote the book without any mathematical equation, right? Some people are like, “Is it a finance book?” I’m like, “Yes, but it’s a financial inquiry book.” And so and I say that because there’s a ton of little [00:30:00] mini moments and questions where I like to tell people, like, grab three friends and read the book together.
Elizabeth: And on my website, there’s a discussion guide. Because I think that the more that we talk about money and our money stories, and we hold ourselves accountable to how we’re satisfying our needs, A, the more fun it gets, and B, the lighter it feels. Like, our powers hold story, especially when they’re secretive, and money is still a taboo in our culture, and we don’t talk enough about it.
Elizabeth: So the more we start to talk [00:30:30] about it, which is why I freaking love your podcast. I mean, like, I’m like you, I love talking about money. I get to talk about money every
Elizabeth: day, right? It is so much fun. Exactly. And so and I think that’s why people listen to your podcast, Maggie, because we’re so curious. And, and so but to take it to the next step, instead of just listening, start talking about it, right?
Elizabeth: Take a question from today’s conversation, call a friend and be like, “Hey, have you ever thought about wealth this way?” Have conversations.
Maggie: I think it’s, yeah, and they should be easier because they’re not like, ” So [00:31:00] what’s your salary? How much did you invest this year?” It’s like, that’s not what I’m asking you at all. You know? It’s what are your feelings, how’d you grow up? I know your mom. How’d she talk about this with you?
Maggie: And I think that, I know you mentioned, like, The Psychology of Money before, and that’s what I love about that book is like, oh, like, every chapter is a different kind of perspective you might have on money, which some I’m like, “Oh, I could see why you would think that,” but like, that’s not how I grew up. And then you see another one and you’re like, “Wow, that’s me on the spot.”
Maggie: You know? So it’s just interesting to get all those viewpoints
Elizabeth: Yeah, [00:31:30] exactly. I mean, I think the easiest one is, like, just call someone up and be like, “Hey, what was your first money memory?” Right? Like that just it’s a, it’s a neutral question, and we get some great stories with their first money memory, so
Maggie: There al- there’s always a good laugh in there too. And so looking at, where we’re at right now with everything shifting economically, how can women define enough when the world keeps telling them it’s never enough?
Elizabeth: Yes. And so it’s defining enough is, I’ll start by saying it’s a revolutionary act, right? And I [00:32:00] think this is really important because in my industry, and I can imagine yours, Maggie, we talk about the great wealth transfer that is gonna be happening in the next, 10 to 15 years, and that basically means trillions of dollars that are gonna pass on to the hands of women ’cause we’re outliving our spouses, right?
Elizabeth: Because we’re inheriting and also ’cause we’re earning it, right? And so I am so freaking excited about the great wealth transfer because I think there’s gonna be more and more space in our conversations in economics and finance to, to start to push back at some of the metrics [00:32:30] that we think are defined, that we think are rigid and actually can be fluid and redefined.
Elizabeth: And so, and so what I would say is that why it’s, for me, it’s a revolutionary act, is that the more we start to experience and embody wealth, right? I practice it every single day, Maggie. I wake up, the first thing I do is have my coffee, and I pull my journal, and I write my three things that satisfied me the day before, right?
Elizabeth: It’s my everyday practice before I look at email, before I do anything. It’s like I’m connected to my experience of [00:33:00] enough because I wanna practice what I preach. And the more that we start to be like, I actually know what enough looks like in strategy and in practice. I do the math and I know what enough looks like financially and basically from a financial independence standpoint that is like, okay, this is the lifestyle that am living and inspired to.
Elizabeth: This is how much I need to support that if I wanna be fully financially independent, meaning not working, or in my case, I’m an entrepreneur. Like, I will never [00:33:30] retire from being an entrepreneur. Maybe I’ll do less and more of things. I mean, as long as I’m able-bodied, I will be creatively involved in life, right?
Elizabeth: And I think that’s a healthy component as well, is because a lot of time this idea of retirement is like, yes, a lot of people wanna retire from a W2, right? Working for someone else. But if you also start to be creative and find, sources of income that come from your creativity, the reality is that you’ll never retire from that in some capacity as long as, knock on wood, you’re able to perform what you wanna [00:34:00] do.
Elizabeth: But I think I digress. What, what I wanna say about that is that, enough is individual So maybe spend some time thinking what does enough feel like, and then you can take that experience to the spreadsheet to be like, “Okay, let me map out phase one of enough.” Then phase two. We don’t have to map it out until age 95.
Elizabeth: That is extremely overwhelming. So when I work with clients, and I do do the plan to 95, I then break it down in five-year segments because life [00:34:30] changes. That’s the only constant is change. And but if we experience and literally consume those moments enough, what I tell clients is that you’re then compounding the experience of meaning in your life, right?
Elizabeth: ‘Cause we compound interest in our accounts, so make sure you’ve got your savings automated. But equally important, compound those moments of meaning, and then you just start to walk in the world differently
Maggie: Mm-hmm. I’m so glad we had this conversation today. I think there’s [00:35:00] so many good takeaways for our community and just a whole new way to look at things, from this actual true holistic standpoint, not just, investments and your estate plan, but really your health, your wealth, all of the different things.
Maggie: There is a question we like to ask all of our guests on the podcast, and I’m excited to hear your answer on this one, and that is: what does financial freedom mean to you?
Elizabeth: Financial freedom is the, the ability to have agency in how I design my life, right? So I [00:35:30] don’t aspire, as I was saying before, to be retired in the conventional sense of the word. So financial freedom isn’t never earning, right? Or I have clients who tell me, ” Having enough money I never have to think about.”
Elizabeth: I’m like, “Wait, wait a second. I am in relationship with money. I need to think, talk, and be with it every day.” So I don’t, I don’t aspire that. I aspire, and I feel like I’m already in financial freedom because as an entrepreneur, I get to design how I work, with whom I work, what I say yes to, what are my services.
Elizabeth: And [00:36:00] so for me, that element of design and agency is what financial freedom is in connection to your relationship to money
Maggie: Of course, of course. Well, Elizabeth, I appreciate you just sharing your knowledge with the world, putting your book out there, putting this mandala out there because I think it’s so needed in this industry to bring it to, the 21st century or wherever we’re at right now. Because money can do so much for us, but there’s also so much more to the equation.
Maggie: So I wanna make sure we have your [00:36:30] link to your book in the show notes and to the mandala so people can get started with that. Anything else that we didn’t touch on that you wanna make sure to share before we sign off today?
Elizabeth: You know, we didn’t touch upon just literally sitting down and having a conversation with money. I describe how to do that in my book. I share my own conversation with money ’cause I think that’s the big piece. Again, as women, we like to be in a relationship, we like to talk. So sit down, talk to money.
Elizabeth: You’d be so surprised at what it wants to say. And so, the book is just chock-full of exercises and questions. And so, yeah, That’s the [00:37:00] revolution is let’s redefine our relationship to wealth. Let’s redefine our relationship to money. Let’s start there.
Maggie: And I know some people are gonna read it and think, “This girl’s crazy if she wants me to sit in one chair and talk to money and want to be in the other chair and be money.” But the messages come out and it works.
Elizabeth: Totally. It’s like, it so works, and I went first. You can read my super vulnerable conversation with money in the book. And there’s also– I need to add this to my website. I will actually after this podcast, is that I’ve [00:37:30] created a GPT on ChatGPT called Conversations with Money. So if you’re like, “Oh, it’s not flowing, but I still wanna talk to money,” go to my website.
Elizabeth: I’ll actually add the link today, and then you can use ChatGPT. It has all of my principles, all of my book, all of the money archetypes, and sit down and have a conversation with money that way. That actually might be easier, Maggie, so thanks for the prompt.
Maggie: Of course, of course. I think that’s gonna be great. So yeah, thanks for sharing all these resources. Thanks for sharing your expertise. I can’t wait for our community to grab your book, and until next [00:38:00] time, be financially fearless.
Empowering Women through smart Investing with Janine Firpo
“I realized my money was actually invested in ways that were undermining me. It was invested in things that were creating the problems I was trying to solve.”- Janine Firpo
Meet Janine Firpo, co-founder of the nonprofit Invest for Better and author of Activate Your Money. With a 35-plus-year career that took her from coding in Silicon Valley in 1981 to fighting international poverty with technology, Janine’s path has never been ordinary. After retiring eight years ago, she took her money back from her financial advisors, started figuring it out herself, and founded a movement. Today, she helps women step into their economic power, not just by investing more, but by investing with intention and in alignment with their values.
In this episode, we sit down with Janine for one of the most eye-opening conversations we have ever had about women and money. This one goes deep. We are talking about what it really means to invest with your values, why most of us have no idea what our money is actually doing in the world, and how even small shifts can create a ripple effect that changes everything.
You will walk away with practical, no-overwhelm steps to start aligning your money with your values today, even if you only have a bank account.
Women are outperforming men in investing but we’re still less likely to start. If you’d like to take the next steps, Join us for next week’s Money Talks “Your Next Investment Move: A Step-by-Step Breakdown”. We’re getting into how to begin, what actually matters, and why the biggest risk is waiting too long. Click here to registerfor FREE and bring your questions!
Have questions? Click this to check out our expert Q&A for tips from industry experts, tailored to help women address their most common financial concerns.
Subscribe to our newsletter to receive financial tips delivered weekly here!
Barbara Provost, EdD and Maggie Nielsen, MBA are the co-founders of Purse Strings, a national platform helping women make confident financial decisions by connecting them with vetted financial professionals who truly understand women’s lives and money needs. Purse Strings connects women across the U.S. with vetted financial professionals who specialize in supporting women through divorce, money transitions, and financial independence.
Full Episode Transcript
(This transcript was generated using AI, so please excuse any misspellings or errors)
PS: Janine Firpo (MP3)
Dr. Barb:[00:00:00] Maggie
Maggie: Mother
Dr. Barb: Imagine if women always had equal rights And there was equality in the world always. How different the world would be?
Maggie: We’d be on Mars. I mean, it would be night and day difference
Dr. Barb: Yeah, and that was the question posed by Sheconomy, and they put it in an algorithm that figured out what it would look like. [00:00:30] And the world would be in such a better place, in better shape, with better healthcare, with better, you know, recognition of women at all levels And it’s just so powerful to think about. But what I love about our guest is even though she asked that question, she’s putting her money where her mouth is literally, and encouraging all of [00:01:00] us to look at our own lives and challenge us to do the same, to really put our money where our values are.
Dr. Barb: Because together we could make a lot of ripples that become big, big waves and really shift so many things in the world from economy to health to wealth to politics
Maggie: To the planet
Dr. Barb: the planet. And this conversation was just [00:01:30] so uplifting and so visionary, but not in a way that she’s dreamy, but the way that she’s doing it.
Maggie: Yeah. I mean, I think we’ve had some of these conversations before around, you know, investing with your values and things of that nature. And it used to be not the same returns, you know? So it kind of made sense like, “Oh, well, you know, we still gotta retire.” But now it’s the same/better returns and we can be helping the world and helping our community.
Maggie: And there’s so many resources [00:02:00] out there with, with Purse Strings, with our guests, with just the internet about how to get your hands on this and how to put your money where your mouth is. And it’s just, there’s no reason not to be anymore, you know? It’s just, it can have such a great impact. And we know every little bit, all of us together, it really adds up
Dr. Barb: Yeah, and it’s important, right? Because if we just do the same old, same old, we’re not moving forward or advancing women.
Maggie: we feel it’s important ’cause we’re about advancing women,
Dr. Barb:[00:02:30] Well and I think many women are. I mean, when, when we see all the companies that she’s brought together, all the networks of women-owned, women-led, women-invested, it’s an amazing start to something that could really, will I hope in my heart of hearts, bloom, and we’re a part of it. Purse Strings is a part of it.
Dr. Barb: You know, our role in educating women and providing them fantastic financial professionals plays a big role. Um, a lot of [00:03:00] what we need to do is keep getting education out there on why it’s important, how to be conscientious about your money, how when you spend or invest, you’re voting with your dollars, and what the impact can be as we stand back and really be conscious about our money and where it’s going, because we know women will own the purse strings of America, and think of the power they’re gonna have with all their money.
Maggie: Oh, the world’s not ready yet. It’s gonna be so good. Let’s dive into this episode ’cause I’m excited to share [00:03:30] it I think I gotta go change a couple investments. Let’s get started.
Gloria Steinem once said, we will never solve the feminization of power until we solve the masculinity of wealth. Barbara Provost and Maggie Nielsen are the [00:04:00] team at purse strings that will help you navigate the ins and outs of financial independence so that you can be financially fearless. This is women in money, the shit we don’t talk about.
Maggie: Today, we have Janine Firpo on the podcast, which we are so excited about. We have been actively engaged in her Shiconomy event, and it’s just been a great 14 weeks. And so we’re so excited to have her on the podcast [00:04:30] today. So before we dive into all of our questions, can you share a little bit about who you are and what you do?
Janine: Sure. So first of all, thank you so much for having me. It’s been great partnering with you guys, and I really loved our sessions together, so thank you so much. So as you said, my name is Janine Firpo, and I’m currently the co-founder of a nonprofit called Invest for Better. We’re actually heading into our fifth year of being in operation this September.
Janine: And what we do is we’re really interested in [00:05:00] helping women step into their economic power. And when we think about that, we’re thinking about not just helping women invest and put their money to work for themselves, but really thinking about what our money is doing in the world and the impact it’s having in the world.
Janine: And so we’re also helping women really think about and realize the power and the potential we have in shifting the economy through the way we invest. And the way that I came to this myself, because I do this with my own money, that’s what kind of got me to wanna [00:05:30] co-found Invest for Better in the first place.
Janine: I had a 35-plus-year career that I ostensibly retired from eight years ago. But what I realized, I didn’t really retire. I still had too much energy, and so after my retirement, I ended up writing a book and co-founding Invest for Better. But my true paid career was first in the technology industry in the Silicon Valley starting in 1981.
Janine: And then I made a huge shift in my career in the mid-’90s to look at the role [00:06:00] that technology and business thinking could play in solving international poverty, and I did that for 20-plus years. So I made these big changes in my career just at the time that the internet was coming online. I walked away from that industry because I wanted to do work that I thought mattered in the world and really created change and served people.
Janine: And I realized over 20 years ago, after I had stepped into that second career, that my [00:06:30] money was actually invested in ways that were undermining me. It was invested in things that were creating the problems I was trying to solve. And so I made a personal commitment then to figure out how I was gonna invest all of my money, starting with my cash right through to my real estate, in alignment with my values.
Janine: And I was not rich. I mean, it’s like that industry was really created for people originally who had a lot of wealth, and that was not me. But I had a lot of values, and I [00:07:00] wanted to see those replicated in my investments, and it was really hard. So when I retired eight years ago, my financial advisors hadn’t gotten me where I wanted to be, and I took my money back from them and started figuring this out myself and realized we’d gotten to a point where anyone even somebody who’s non-accredited, even somebody who only has a bank account can think about what their money is doing and can make shifts to put it to work in a more meaningful way.
Janine: And I [00:07:30] realized women really wanted to do this, like 85% of us, story research shows, and most young people really wanna do this, and no one was helping them. And so I decided I’m gonna do that. And so this has turned into my post-retirement passion, if you will.
Maggie: And this is why you’re our guest today, for all those reasons.
Dr. Barb: Love it. There’s a lot of discipline in what you’re saying. There’s a lot of discipline to first of all [00:08:00] learn, and second of all make changes, right? So we’ve got 1,000 things going on in our lives. You know, your money can just be in its black hole wherever it is, doing whatever it’s doing, right, when you’re investing it.
Dr. Barb: But to really pull back and really say, “I need to live by my convictions and make sure that every point and turn I am doing that.” And, you know, personally, I will admit that I’ve closed my Amazon account, my Audible account. [00:08:30] I don’t shop at Target. Like, there are places that I loved and used on a daily basis, but they do not align with my values, and I’ve just cut it.
Dr. Barb: And, like, people are like, “You did that with Amazon? How did you do that?” And I’m like it really was easy.”
Janine: you know what? I– So I do the same thing. So I haven’t completely cut Amazon out, but I have rules around when I use it and when I don’t, and I only use it when I can’t find what I’m looking for somewhere else. I [00:09:00] have reduced my footprint there dramatically. But one thing I wanna say, because I don’t want women to feel like they have to be perfect.
Janine: I mean, one of the things that I think we overdo as women is we feel like we have to be experts in everything before we do a thing. We feel like we have to cross every T and dot every I. We have to be so perfect. And so I really let myself off the hook sometimes because I can’t do [00:09:30] everything. And so while I am trying to invest my money in alignment with my values, and I’ve been working at it a long time, I’m not at 100% alignment yet.
Janine: I’ve been at this for 20 years, and I may never get to 100% alignment because I’ve been an investor for 40 years, which means that I have a lot of capital gains invested, and some stuff is pretty bad. One of the things that I’m invested in is a very popular stock. It’s called the Vanguard Total Stock Market Index Fund, VTSAX.
Janine: A lot [00:10:00] of people love it. It sucks for the world, and I got a lot of capital gains in that thing. So I’m selling it off a little bit at a time, but I can’t afford to sell it all off all at once
Dr. Barb: Right, right. You can’t cut off your nose to spite your face, for sure.
Janine: And then if I’m not perfect with Amazon, it’s like, okay I’m better, but I’m not perfect, and I’m not gonna make myself wrong for not being perfect,
Dr. Barb: Absolutely. [00:10:30] Yeah. This isn’t about blame. It’s about being financially conscious. Like, when you have a choice, just making the best choice at the time, right? It might be Amazon ’cause it’s the only place you can get whatever it is you absolutely need. But if you have choices, being thoughtful about where you’re putting your money because as we say, you vote with your money, right?
Dr. Barb: Where you put your money, you’re putting a vote. And even with, like you say, Janine, I’m not perfect, but all of the changes that you have made moving forward is quite a rippling effect, [00:11:00] right, in the world. And if we all do a little something every day, we can make big waves
Janine: Huge. And the thing is, I think the, part of the challenge is a lot of women do wanna do this, but they don’t even know how. They don’t even know what. They don’t even know where to begin, and that’s part of what we’re really trying to educate women about is how to actually do this and how to make it not a heavy lift, right? We all have heavy enough lifts a lot of [00:11:30] times, right?
Maggie: Were you just kind of done with your tech industry? Did you know you wanted to go to value-based investing? Like, what shifted that decision for you?
Janine: So I wasn’t really done with my tech industry. I had a blast doing that work. I mean, I started– my first job was as a programmer.
Maggie: Were you the only woman?
Janine: The answer to that is no. So first of all, you gotta realize I started in 1981.
Janine: There were not personal computers. They didn’t exist, really, [00:12:00] and we were working on mainframe computers. And really, the truly the first job I ever had programming was in New Orleans. So I had moved to New Orleans because of a guy, and I was living there. Loved New Orleans. But at that time, I was coding at a life insurance company, and there was no such thing as a computer career.
Janine: You didn’t go to school and get a computer degree. That didn’t really exist. But computers were coming in, and these big corporations needed [00:12:30] programmers. So what they did was they gave everyone who was interested in their company a test, and whoever passed that test could be trained as a coder. And guess who passed the test a lot?
Janine: Women.
Janine: So the first coding job I had in New Orleans, almost the entire department was women, and
Maggie: We’re so smart
Janine: was run by a woman,
Dr. Barb: Wow
Janine: which is kind of incredible, right? And part of the reason I [00:13:00] left that job was because after three years, I realized that woman wasn’t going anywhere, who was my boss. My ability to grow in that job was nonexistent.
Janine: I had one of the best jobs in the entire state of Louisiana. It’s like, “I gotta get outta here.” So I went back to California, which is where I had been raised, and started coding there, and that’s the last time I was ever among women. From that point forward, I was always one of the few women [00:13:30] in the room.
Janine: Completely different, right? But thinking back on that, I don’t think that’s a history that most people know about, and it’s actually one that I forgot about too until I was started talking to people recently. And then in the, I, in the ’80s, I worked at Apple Computer, which was, like, an amazing place to be in the ’80s, so I had an amazing career in tech.
Janine: What happened was I also was a huge traveler. I just love to travel, and I love to travel for long periods of time. And [00:14:00] so I left this job in February of 1995. I was in something called the multimedia industry, and I went to Africa, solo backpacked through sub-Saharan Africa for four and a half months.
Dr. Barb: Oh my gosh
Janine: And while I was there, I just saw this incredible poverty.
Janine: And in fact, there was one little girl I met in Ethiopia, in fact. She was just gorgeous. I still have a picture of her. She was gorgeous, gorgeous inside and out. She was maybe six. [00:14:30] Beautiful, dressed completely in rags, always smiling. And I looked at her and I thought, “She has no future. She’s gonna grow up to what? Poverty. She’s gonna probably be pregnant by the time she’s a young teen. She’s gonna be burdened with children. She’s gonna live a very hard life.” And it so felt so unfair to [00:15:00] me that she was gonna be relegated to that future. And then I just saw that, I saw these kids with extended bellies and just smiling and happy and running after you and wanting to hold their hand, and you just knew these kids were malnourished.
Janine: It was just sad beyond sad, and people living in, like, just terrible conditions. And I decided I wanna do something about this. And so when I came home, the internet had emerged literally while I was gone, [00:15:30] and everyone I knew was jumping onto that bandwagon, and I was like, “Mm, not me.” So I consulted in that space for a year until I figured out how to build a career around poverty and technology, and then that’s what I did for the next 20-some years.
Maggie: Isn’t it? I feel like we’ve had this conversation before on the podcast, but it’s an interesting view of wealth, right? It wasn’t a lot of money, but there’s so much joy still in that community. There’s so much spirit. There’s so much… Like, it’s just a different [00:16:00] type of wealth, you know? But when you don’t have the money, it looks so different
Janine: Yes, and people really struggle and they really suffer. It’s really hard, too. So there is a joy And there is a sense of community and there are elements of wealth that I think we have really lost in our society for absolute sure, and it’s a really hard life, and people die really young.
Maggie: And so then tell us about now the work that you’re doing with Women With Capital and Invest For Better, and how this kinda then [00:16:30] cumulated into your Sheconomy movement.
Janine: Okay. So as I said earlier, I just started getting really interested in women and our money. And this was even before I started learning about the wealth– the huge wealth transfer that’s going on. But I just realized that women really think differently about our money. I mean, – when I started thinking about writing a book back in 2018, I was talking to a bunch of people and telling them about it, and the reaction that I got from women was, ” Oh [00:17:00] my God, I’m gonna give you my name.
Janine: I’m gonna give you my email address, and when your book is ready, tell me about it. I love this. It’s such a great idea. I really wanna learn more about how to invest, and I don’t know where to find out how to do that.” Because when I wrote my book, literally, like, the only people who had written investment books for women at that time were, like, Jean Chatzky and Suze Orman. Not to diminish them in any way, but it was just two, right? There was not a lot out there. And then when I [00:17:30] would talk to men and I was telling them what I was telling the women, which was, “I’m gonna write this book about investing with your values,” they would start to argue with me. They would tell me why that was a bad idea.
Janine: They would tell me why that investing was a joke. They would tell me why I shouldn’t do it. They just had all kinds of opinions for me about this that I didn’t really need. And I realized, ” Okay, I’m not gonna do this for men. I’m gonna do this for women because they kinda get it and I don’t wanna [00:18:00] fight.
Janine: I’m too old for this, and I just wanna help the women and the people who really see this the way that I see it.” And so that’s kind of how that whole thing came about. And from the very beginning of working on the book I really realized that women learn well when we’re in groups. We like to learn from each other.
Janine: We like to be in groups. And I realized there was a value in writing the book in a way where it could be used as a book club or it could be used… In fact, the last chapter of the [00:18:30] book is about how to start your own sort of club. And while I was writing the book, I met this woman named Ellen Remmer, who is my co-founder, and she had also come to the same conclusion as I, and had also shifted her assets into things that she cared about and had also seen the power of women in groups.
Janine: And so she had started these circles and was putting women together in eight groups of eight to 20 with a facilitated series of conversations about investing with your values. [00:19:00] And so we got to know each other. We’re like, “Wow, we’re both trying to do the same thing. Why would we compete with each other?
Janine: Let’s just join forces.” And so that’s what we did, and we co-founded Invest for Better together. We took her work and my work, combined them, and created Invest for Better. And then how that led to Our She Economy, which you also asked about. So we’re a relatively small nonprofit, but we know hundreds of other women-led [00:19:30] organizations across the financial services space, from women-led banks to fixed income products to angel groups, the kinds of things that you guys are doing, educators, people who have written books now, coaches, financial advisors, venture capitalists who are investing in women, you name it, right?
Janine: And we realized that we were all struggling to get heard above the noise. And so we started thinking, “Well, what if [00:20:00] we came up with a marketing campaign that was a big enough umbrella that we could all fit under the same thing, and we all shared it together? Could we get more reach and visibility?”
Janine: And so that’s what we did. So Our She Economy is really a collective effort. There are 120 organizations that are listed as resources on the website, oursheeconomy.org, and those women have been sharing the campaign. Our [00:20:30] combined reach over this period is almost 12 million people.
Dr. Barb: Woo-hoo, that’s awesome.
Janine: Which is cool,
Dr. Barb: Wow, look at that
Janine: And the concept that we came up with that we thought was big enough for all of us was asking the question: What would the world look like if women had been equal partners in the economy for the last 100 years? And we had a women-led data analysis company [00:21:00] take that idea and work with us, and we came up with a series of headlines that describe that future world, that possible world and backed with data that ex- shows you how if things had been a little different, we could’ve gotten there.
Janine: So it’s headlines like, ” Half of the Fortune 500 companies were founded by women. Cervical cancer has been eradicated. Men live as long as women do. Our kids never had to have live shooter drills,” and so on, [00:21:30] right? And that does not have to be a wouldn’t it be nice. It could actually, all of those things and the other 14 headlines we have, could all be the future if we start moving our money in ways that truly create the world that many, many women wanna live in for themselves, their children, and their grandchildren.
Maggie: I just get so excited about this. First of all, everyone coming together is such a feminine thing. I mean, first you two coming [00:22:00] together to collaborate. It wasn’t like, “I’ll fight you to the death and one of us wins,” you know? And then all of us together, these 120 or 45 companies you mentioned, you know, all doing that as well.
Maggie: But it is these things that it’s like we know we can get it done. We have all the knowledge here. We just need to put some funding behind it. And especially when it comes to women’s health, we don’t know anything about it. You know, we don’t study it. And so just knowing that some of these things, if we just put a little bit of money there, we could, you know, cure a cancer.
Maggie: Boom, done. You know what I mean? It’s [00:22:30] crazy
Janine: It is crazy. It is crazy. But it’s true
Dr. Barb: Yeah. So with the Sheconomy, after these 14 weeks, what do you see the future? ‘Cause you have an amazing, powerful vision
Janine: Oh, I don’t have an answer for you on that one yet. But I will, and it is actually something that we’re going to be– So we have a steering committee, and we’re gonna be meeting with our steering committee in June. So the Our She Economy will end on June 2nd with this amazing event that I’m [00:23:00] really excited about.
Janine: You guys could come on a plane and come and join us, but it’s gonna be in person in San Francisco. So any of your listeners who live there or know somebody who’s there, tell them about it. It’s actually gonna take place at a place called La Cucina, which is really cool because La Cucina is a incubator for women food entrepreneurs to help them get started.
Janine: So it’s, like, got little kitchens in it and all of this stuff. But what we’re doing is we’re gonna [00:23:30] have 12 female-led financial product companies. So we’re talking about banks, fixed income products, stock market products. We’re gonna have an angel group there. We’re gonna have a real estate deal there that you can get into for $1,000.
Janine: Just really interesting things that women can invest in right now. They don’t even need to be an accredited investor. They can invest in this stuff now, and it really advances a lot of the things that we’re talking about in the She Economy. virtually, except for [00:24:00] one, all of the players who will be there have been part of Our She Economy.
Janine: So you’ll be able to come, meet with, talk one-on-one with the women behind these companies, which is really cool. Learn more about what they do, what it would take to be, what the returns are, what the deal is. But again, this is not like private stuff. This is almost exclusively publicly available product.
Janine: And we may have a couple of special guests. I won’t tell you who. We haven’t confirmed them yet, but it would [00:24:30] be exciting if we get them. And yeah, so we’re gonna have this great event. There’ll be food that from these entrepreneurs. There’ll be beverages. We’re gonna have a raffle. We’re gonna celebrate the conclusion of Our She Economy on June 2nd in San Francisco.
Janine: I’m excited.
Dr. Barb: Well, maybe that’s something you need to take on the road then
Janine: You know what? That’s such an interesting thing. I just got off a call with one of the people that I work with, and she said exactly the same thing.
Maggie: We love a [00:25:00] roadshow
Dr. Barb: yeah, Chicago, New York,
Dr. Barb: Dallas, Miami
Janine: It’s something to definitely think about. So we’ll be, as I was saying, we’re gonna have some– We’re gonna be really working on this over the summer months and really thinking about, you know, now that we’re five years in, the world has changed since I started thinking about all of this 2018. And I also don’t mean that what you just reacted to.
Janine: I mean that when I’m thinking about that and when I said that, what I mean [00:25:30] is there are so many more women-led organizations around these issues and groups that are coming online and women that are stepping up to help and empower other women around their money. I talked to these three young women.
Janine: They started an organization called Girl Math, And what they’re doing is they’re helping women i invest in private deals. And they basically said to me, you know, “We got out of college, and we started seeing the men who got out of college [00:26:00] at the same time as us, and things were different for them than they were for us.
Janine: And one of the things that were different was they were talking about all these deals that they were investing in, and we wanted to do that, too.”
Janine: So they had to create an organization that they’re now going strong in helping each other do that, right? So all of these things are starting to emerge, and so it makes for a really interesting question about, well, what really is needed next and where, as an organization, can Invest For Better really help and [00:26:30] what is our core strength?
Janine: So I think we’re gonna be thinking about all of those things.
Maggie: Yeah that’s awesome and I love the girl math. I mean, we’ve gotta take back that and own it and not have it be this negative thing. But for those who can’t make it to San Francisco or, you know, listen to this podcast later and who feels kind of disconnected or intimidated by investing, where do you recommend they begin?
Janine: So they can actually go to oursheeconomy.org, it will continue to stay up, and go into the challenge [00:27:00] section. Because what we did with Our She Economy is every week for 14 weeks, we had a different theme, and it started with things as simple as just know your money story and know what your goals are around your money.
Janine: And then it advanced to things like what we did with you. Who are the people that you have around you as your financial team? And it’s kind of ending with, and then what are some things that you can actually invest in to make a difference, right? So you could actually go to that website.
Janine:[00:27:30] Every theme, there were three very, very simple actions that you could take. So that’s one way to get started is to just go do some of those things that are on there. And if you do them, post about them, or not, but you could. So that’s one way to get started. Another way to get started, if you just wanna start really simply, is think about where you bank and go find a local bank for your savings account or a bank that is run by women, [00:28:00] and there are some websites to help you find those.
Janine: So that’s another thing. A third thing, if you really wanna sink your teeth in and, like, really bite this one hard, you could get a copy of my book, “Activate Your Money.” You could start your own book club with your friends and just go through it chapter by chapter. Every chapter in “Activate Your Money” ends in a take action section. And I have a companion website called activateyourmoney.net where you can go to that chapter and [00:28:30] download tools, spreadsheets, all the things you need to actually do the actions that are recommended.
Maggie: I see Barb writing down the book right now. Like, “I need to go get that later.” I see her already over there
Janine: And then the other thing that you could do, I’m giving lots of options depending where you are in your journey, twice a year we offer these facilitated courses that I mentioned. And so we have leaders who will take you through a seven-part curriculum. You meet online every other week for three and a half [00:29:00] months.
Janine: It’ll start again in September. And you could join one of those circles too. It costs $125 to join, so we keep the price really, really low so that nobody feels like it’s a barrier. But we learned over time that if We started out making it free, and if you make it free, people sign up and then don’t show up.
Janine: so those are four easy ways to get started. Oursheconomy.org simple steps there you could walk through. Change your bank, start a book club [00:29:30] with Activate Your Money, or join Invest for Better Circle. And you can join Invest for Better and become a member and get our newsletter and stay informed for no cost at all.
Janine: So you could just go to investforbetter.org and sign up there
Maggie: I love it. Yeah, there’s so many resources just to make it happen. And so for, I wanna kind of loop back around to that topic we kind of started about, of really changing your spending and your investments to aligning with your values. And so I know you said you’ve changed some of your habits and things like that.
Maggie: So can [00:30:00] you share some of the things that you’ve changed in your life to start being more value aligned and things that people can take? Again, without overthinking it, without saying, you know, it’s must do this and not do that, you know, but just, it’s like, the
Maggie: 80/20 rule, right? We
Maggie: try to do
Maggie: most of it
Janine: the very first thing I did was change my banks. So I used to be my banks used to be the big one at some of the Big Four. My money is now, some of it is in a– I live in Oakland, California. [00:30:30] Some of my money is in Beneficial State Bank, which is a triple bottom line bank that is providing loans to underserved populations in my own community.
Janine: I also have a CD, a six-month CD in a bank called Climate First Bank, which is based out of Florida. And what they do is they give loans to people and companies who are trying to buy electric vehicles, solar panels, or other climate-forward technologies. And they’re paying right [00:31:00] now, like 4.25% on a six-month CD, ’cause I’m not about giving up financial return, so just making that really clear.
Janine: So I did that. So banking is easy. There are many, many, many choices there. In the stock market, I have shifted– I’m shifting money out of VTSAX and putting it into other funds that are more values aligned. And in the stock market, I have and talk about having a sort of a two-pronged strategy, a horizontal and a vertical strategy.[00:31:30]
Janine: So the horizontal strategy is still buy index funds that kind of hold the market low, you know. So I’m doing that, but there are many that are far superior to VTSAX and outperforming, by the way. So they’re better than that fund, and they’re doing better financially than that fund. The other thing that I learned when I wrote my book that I didn’t realize is there are hun- I think there are probably thousands, hundreds if not thousands of ETFs, which are another fund [00:32:00] category, right?
Janine: Electronic traded funds. And they are specialized, so where something broad is holding a good part of the market, you can go and pick an ETF that’s focused on clean water
Janine: or solar power or women, companies that are only run by women in the stock market, or social justice, if that’s your thing. There is a fund for vegans.
Janine: If you’re [00:32:30] a vegan, there’s a
Janine: vegan fund. I mean, there’s affordable housing ETFs. There’s like, whatever your passion is, my guess is you could find an ETF. And so you can take a small portion of your money and invest it in one of those things. It’s likely to be more volatile than a broad market index fund, but it may outperform the market.
Janine: It’s very possible. And I think they’re kind of fun to watch and see and to know, [00:33:00] “You know what? I got a little bit of…” And particularly when they’re led by women. So, so one of the things that’s really important also to realize in this whole space is that the majority of financial advisors are men, although that’s changing.
Janine: But still, I think you guys probably know this better than me, is probably what, what is the percentage of female financial advisors?
Dr. Barb: 17 or 18, not more than 20.
Janine: So that needs to grow. But the amount of fund of asset managers, people who [00:33:30] are running the funds that we invest in in the stock market, the percentage of those that are women is, like, 1%.
Janine: So it’s really helpful if we invest in funds that are run by women. That’s also really important. So looking at those and making some of those vertical choices. And all the ones that I just mentioned, or most of them, like the vegan one the one that invests in women only, WCEO social justice something that is [00:34:00] fossil-free.
Janine: So social justice is JSTC. There’s one that is for fossil-free called Sphere, SPFFX, all run by women.
Janine: So investing in those, invest in a thing that you value and also uplifts female fund managers, so. But again, like, smaller bits of your money and do your homework and know what you’re investing in and what the return profile is and all of that.
Janine: But I think there’s a real opportunity to think really [00:34:30] creatively in the stock market.
Dr. Barb: Love it
Maggie: we’ve had a podcast before about a woman in our network who does, like, ESG investing and sits down and ask, you know, ’cause I know a lot of people don’t wanna manage this themselves, you know? Which I get. If you do, that’s a great option. If you don’t, like, find that right resource who will still invest in those values, ’cause that’s out there for the same price, for same or better returns, you know?
Maggie: It’s not like you’re giving up, ” Oh, I’m helping the earth, but I’m making half the money.” Like, no, that’s not what we’re about [00:35:00] either, you know? And so there are professionals who can help you and ask, like, “Great, what are your values? What do you not want to invest in? What do you want to invest in? What’s most important to you?”
Maggie: And so there are those professionals out there supporting that as well, and it’s amazing the option, I mean, the options out there are unlimited
Janine: Exactly. In fact, and you’re right, and there are financial advisors who will help you do this, and you can find them, and I’m glad you have some in your network. That’s amazing. But the thing that I’m also reading, realizing and what I’m [00:35:30] reading a lot these days about this kind of investing is that this is actually smarter investing than traditional investing because you’re actually asking harder questions of companies.
Janine: You’re asking harder questions of funds. You wanna know how these companies are thinking about the risks that we’re facing and the things that are changing, and these things are not all factored into the market. We think the market factors in everything, but they’re [00:36:00] not factored in or they get factored in late.
Janine: And so if you’re actually paying attention and asking harder questions about how companies are showing up in terms of the impacts of climate on their businesses, the impacts of the growing wealth disparity on their businesses, the impacts of how they are treating their workers, what kind of product safety they have, how consumers are reacting to them, whether they’re ethical or not in terms of their boards and their practices, these things actually [00:36:30] have material impact on the growth potential and return potential of a company.
Janine: And if we’re not asking those questions, which we tend not to unless you’re bringing more of a values-aligned lens, then you’re not seeing the full picture and you’re not making as strong of an investment decision
Dr. Barb: Right. Are you seeing women show up differently now with their money and their values? Are you seeing a shift of this happening?
Janine: Well, I [00:37:00] don’t know that I can say that at like a national level, but what I can tell you is that the women who go through our program do. So when women learn about this and they start to– It changes the way they think about money. And when they change, they do move their money. They do make changes. And so we see that very much with the women who are going through our program, absolutely.
Janine: But I can’t say to you women with large
Dr. Barb: Not yet, but [00:37:30] soon.
Janine: this is a movement,
Janine: right?
Janine: And what we’re seeing is that it’s growing. It goes back to what I said earlier about the fact that there’s so many more women who are stepping up and leading companies, starting organizations, and doing things to empower themselves and others around our money.
Janine: So many more than five years ago,
Maggie: It’s so exciting. I mean, just that time in five years. And I feel like it’s a lot of this information, once you start learning [00:38:00] it, you can’t, like, unsee it anymore, you know? And then so it’s like a, it feels like a must-do once you get too much information. You’re like, “Now I gotta be socially conscious about it.
Maggie: I can’t go a different way.” Like, which is not a bad thing, but, you know, it’s like once you learn it, you can’t unsee it
Janine: Right. The way you just reacted is exactly what I meant when I said we can’t be perfect, right? And so it’s like, “Oh God, now I need to be socially conscious of this.” So [00:38:30] rather than that, realize, “Oh, I just learned something that’s gonna make me smarter with my money and that’s gonna help me grow my wealth faster.
Janine: So I’m gonna learn more about this because one, it’s really cool. Two, it’ll make my money so much more meaningful to me. And three, I’m gonna end up with more wealth at the end of the day.”
Janine: That’s a reason to
Janine: do this, right?
Maggie: And like if more money is going into the hands of women and we’re using it and helping the community and then the [00:39:00] earth is getting better and we’re making more money, it’s just like boom, boom, boom, stars align.
Janine: Exactly.
Dr. Barb: compounds
Janine: Exactly, exactly, exactly. We just gotta make it really easy because that’s the other thing is like women are busy, they’re stressed, they’re young moms, they’re like managing so many things and it’s so ease- easy, easy, easy is the goal.
Maggie: Yeah.
Maggie: definitely. Well, this has been such a fun conversation, and I’m [00:39:30] so excited to have you, you know, to meet you and to see all the work that you’re doing as it’s so, so impactful. So I know you’ll be in the history books. But I do have to ask you a question, you know, that we ask all of our guests on the podcast and, you know, for you especially, you know, when your money’s fully aligned, what does financial freedom look like to you?
Janine: So I have been financially free since I was very young. Very young. And it’s not that I was rich it’s that I had enough money in the bank [00:40:00] that I could make choices in my life. So, for example, when I talk about that trip that I took to Africa, I was in my 30s when I did that, but I had enough money in the bank…
Janine: So I used to keep a year of run rate. That’s what I personally did was a year because it gave me that kind of flexibility. And so The reason I took that trip, the sort of the impetus for it, [00:40:30] I was working at this company, I was an executive at this company. I was asked to do something that I felt was unethical, and I refused to do it.
Janine: And I decided I’m not gonna stay here anymore, so I quit my job. And I decided this is my opportunity to go travel for a while, and I had the money to do that. I had the money to quit the job. And what’s interesting, and one of the things that I won’t forget, you know how in your life there are just things that you won’t forget?
Janine: When I was going around and saying goodbye to all of the [00:41:00] other executives and the people in the company, one of the other gentlemen who had been one of my peers said to me, “You know, you’re so lucky that you can do this.” He said, “I’m married. I have a wife who doesn’t work. I have three kids. I have to not only make myself happy, but I have to keep my wife happy, and I have to make sure my kids are okay, and I don’t have the freedom that you have to just walk [00:41:30] away.” And I was like, “Oh my God, I never thought about this before.” And what became clear to me in that moment was one, he was right, and I had built that freedom for myself, and I never really understood the burden that we have been putting on men for generations. And so when I think about what’s happening with women and how women are stepping more into [00:42:00] their power and more into their money and more into their careers, it doesn’t just free us, it frees men.
Janine: It lets men not have to show up in a way that keeps them from expressing themselves as fully and completely as they want to.
Maggie: And now, I think when this podcast released, you’ll be on six months in Italy, and that’s
Maggie: some great freedom right there
Janine: Yeah, [00:42:30] I’m really, really excited about that. So I became an Italian citizen about 10 or 15 years ago, and I’ve been wanting to go and spend some time there just for fun and to have a different set of experiences. But my husband he’s a lot younger than me, actually. He’s 10 years younger than me, and he has not gotten to the retirement place yet, and he wasn’t available to go with me for any length.
Janine: But he’s taking a [00:43:00] sabbatical, and so we’ll be able to go together.
Maggie: love that. I
Dr. Barb: Sounds lovely, really
Janine: Yeah. I think it’ll be an adventure for sure. We’ll see. We’re taking our little dog with us. It’ll be an adventure
Maggie: Thank you for taking the time today to come on this podcast and share everything that you’re doing and just being great impact to, you know, the women and money and helping us all make a better impact in this world.
Janine: Well, thank you for having me, and thank you for all you two are doing too, because we’re all in this together, and it’s all of [00:43:30] our efforts together that are gonna create the change we wanna see.
Maggie: Definitely. Well, we’re gonna make sure we have all your links, your book, all the good stuff in the show notes so people can stay connected. And until next time, be financially fearless.
Outro: You’ve been listening to Women Money, the shit we don’t talk about. Now it’s time to take what you’ve learned and make bold moves towards financial independence. Stay in the know by joining our newsletter for exclusive tools, resources, and updates that keep you financially fearless. Head [00:44:00] to PurseStrings. co and sign up today. Need a financial professional who gets it? Turn to PurseStrings Curated Directory, your go to resource for financial experts who know how to put you first. Love this episode? Leave us a review and help us empower even more women to own their financial power. Until next time, be financially fearless.
Money Discipline Without Deprivation for First-Generation Wealth Builders with Chelsea Ransom-Cooper
You don’t need a million dollars to start building wealth, you need time.
Happy Black History Month! In this episode, we sit down with Chelsea Ransom-Cooper, CFP® the Co-Founder and Chief Financial Planning Officer of Zenith Wealth Partners, a black-owned wealth management firm on a mission to generate $1 billion in wealth for women and people of color. Chelsea is not only leading a firm; she’s cultivating the next generation of diverse financial planners who are committed to helping first-generation wealth builders take confident steps toward financial freedom.
We talk about why waiting is the most expensive decision women make, how money discipline does not have to mean deprivation, and why so many women are focused on becoming work optional instead of retired.
Chelsea shares her journey into wealth management, emphasizing the importance of financial education, particularly for black women and first-generation wealth builders. The conversation covers topics such as overcoming financial challenges, the value of early financial planning, and the concept of ‘work optional’ lifestyles. Chelsea also discusses effective strategies for managing cash flow, the significance of building a lasting legacy, and tips for transitioning from employment to entrepreneurship.
Join us for next week’s Money Talks, we’ll talk about “Business Exit Strategy”. Click here to registerfor FREE and bring your questions!
Barbara Provost, EdD and Maggie Nielsen, MBA are the co-founders of Purse Strings, a national platform helping women make confident financial decisions by connecting them with vetted financial professionals who truly understand women’s lives and money needs. Purse Strings connects women across the U.S. with vetted financial professionals who specialize in supporting women through divorce, money transitions, and financial independence.
Full Episode Transcript
(This transcript was generated using AI, so please excuse any misspellings or errors)
Barb:[00:00:00] Maggie, I have to tell you. I’ve loved what our guest on this podcast said about. Starting early with getting a financial planner and creating your legacy. And the reason I love that so much is, well, something you said too is, some people wait, they wait till they have, a million dollars or they think they need to have a million dollars to hire a financial advisor, or they have to be, older or whatever.
Barb: But wealth really comes when you start as soon as possible.
Maggie: It is time. It’s all about the time. I mean, the money you invest, but then having the, time to keep it invested.
Barb: Yeah. And what’s so important about that is changing the mindset that you can have a financial advisor in your twenties, where you might be high potential income earner. Maybe not at that point, but you will be. So why not take and leverage the money you do have and make the most of it as soon as possible?
Barb: That’s how people really build wealth.
Maggie: That’s true. [00:01:00] I mean, yeah, you gotta get invested. Get started Granted, there are some financial advisors out there who want a million dollars for you to start that relationship with them, but there are plenty that don’t need that. You can pay them per hour, 125 bucks an hour, and if you did one hour, got all that wrapped up, know what you’re supposed to be doing.
Maggie: I mean, that’s a, that’s a good investment.
Barb: Yeah. Or just someone you can meet with annually. Maybe they put a plan together and you execute it, whatever it might be. There’s lots of different ways you can address building your wealth, and that’s how people get to be, the millionaire. Much sooner earlier in their lifetime than waiting for retirement.
Barb: And speaking of retirement, we kind of decided we’re gonna retire the word retirement, right?
Maggie: I thought you were gonna tell me you were retiring right here on this podcast episode. I was like,
Barb: No, but I might be work optional.
Maggie: Oh, spicy. Tell me what that means.
Barb: Well, a lot of people do say to me, Barb, when are you gonna retire? But [00:02:00] you know, I love what I do love working with you. I live for this work, but it can be an ebb and flow a little bit more and, you take on the lion’s share, which you already do, and I can kind of make it more flexible, more optional as I, move into more retirement type living, which is travel and tennis, and.
Maggie: I mean, I just think about, if people retire at 65, even 70, if you live for another 30, 40 years, yeah, I’m probably bound to pick up another job doing something because after I’ve hit the beach, hit the tennis court, gone to the gym, I’m gonna need something to fill my days after a while, and there’s so much skill that I feel like so many women have so much expertise in these unique areas where other people are looking for that. And so it’s like, no, I’m not gonna be there nine to five, but I can do some contract work, I can be on a board, I can do these other things.
Maggie: Bring that skillset, keep the mind running, because that’s gonna keep you young a long time. We’re gonna avoid Alzheimer’s, [00:03:00] ideally, and just keep you going. And so it’s not like I have to work to make a paycheck, pay the bills and retire, but like, I can work, make some more money. I’m pretty settled, but if the universe hands me something, why not take it?
Barb: There’s nothing wrong with that. It’s not like retirement has to be on off, like you’re working one day, you’re retired the next, which I think really sends people for a loop. ’cause they’re kinda like, now what do I do? Like I’m turned off from the work that I did. Now I’m supposed to find something else to do.
Barb: But if you gradually become work optional, then you have more choices to kind of ebb and flow in your life.
Maggie: I see you just like slithering slowly away. But I think we should keep this conversation about work optional and continue it because I think it’s gonna be more and more apparent, and because we are just living so long, offices are not, putting on your suit going in nine to five every day.
Maggie: It’s very different for teachers though. But you know. We’re seeing it more and more we’re, working from home, [00:04:00] different things like that. So it’s getting more immersive. It’s not so cut and dry, which sometimes can be hard ’cause things bleed into each other and there’s not as defined lines.
Maggie: But it’s also like I can do things when I need to do them and get ’em all done in the day.
Barb: I say it’s a flex.
Maggie: It’s a flex. Let me see a flex girl.
Barb: Mm-hmm. You got it.
Maggie: So with that, let’s go hear what Chelsea has to say as she was saying some good things.
Barb: Yeah, a lot of great taglines.
Maggie: A lot of great t-shirts, so let’s dive in.
Barb: Let’s do it.
Gloria Steinem once said, we will never solve the feminization of power until we solve the masculinity of wealth. Barbara Provost and Maggie Nielsen are the team at purse strings that will help you navigate the ins and outs of financial independence so that you can be financially fearless. This is women in money, the shit we don’t talk about.
Maggie:[00:05:00] Hello, we are excited to have Chelsea Ransom-Cooper on the show with us today. So before we dive into this conversation, Chelsea, could you give us a little who you are, what you do, so the audience can get to know you?
Chelsea: Absolutely, and thank you so much for having me. So my name is Chelsea Ransom-Cooper. I am a certified financial planner. The Chief Financial Planning Officer here at Zenith Wealth Partners. I am born and raised in New Jersey and I am the daughter of a fashion designer. So that is my fun fact. I always like to claim.
Chelsea: My mom, is still to this day, she’s a technical fashion designer. She made my prom dress, she made my Halloween costumes. All the things. But I always say she had the design mind. But finances were, never like they didn’t come very naturally to her. So as I started growing up and after I graduated college, I started to have more financial questions, honestly.
Chelsea: And I started to realize there was a gap between, you know, what I knew and what my family knew, and then some of my peers as they were graduating. [00:06:00] So that’s what really got me into finance. Honestly. I always say. You know, I’m the financial planner or the financial advisor I wish my mom could have had over 30 years ago.
Chelsea: But like, that’s really my motivation is being able to help her. It’s been really exciting to help her now, but that’s how I actually got into wealth management. So I started at a boutique RIA and I was specifically helping individuals who were about 10 years away from retirement and then in retirement.
Chelsea: With just planning for their wealth investing. But I got to a point as I was working there, where I looked around and I didn’t have any clients of color and I only had a handful that were women. So, it kind of just felt like I was helping a very specific subset of society with money, but not really working with the people who inspired me to.
Chelsea: Be in this position in the first place. So 2020 was that time where I feel like the whole world reset in multiple ways. And that just felt like a really natural time to try to find a space where I could be more intentional with who I was working for and [00:07:00] supporting. And I could not necessarily find a firm that was really gonna focus on first generation wealth builders and helping them with planning and investment advice.
Chelsea: At the caliber that I had seen at the past firm. So that’s when I decided to partner with a friend of mine who felt the same way and wanted to democratize access to investments in private placements. And we decided to partner together to create the firm that we wanted to see. So that was in September, 2020.
Chelsea: So fast forward now, we’re still growing this business and it’s been really exciting and rewarding to know, like that same vision and mission is still, still what we’re doing today. So that’s a little bit about me and I’m still in New Jersey.
Maggie: It is like the uh, be the change you wanna see in the world, right? Like that’s the action you took.
Chelsea: exactly.
Maggie: And is your mom still like giving you any great outfits?
Chelsea: All of them. So if you ever see me at a conference, like I’m always in my, my mom’s clothes, so specifically she works for Carl Lagerfeld and [00:08:00] Calvin Klein. So that is the majority of my work attire.
Barb: Wow. Lucky. That’s awesome. Well, it’s nice. It’s kind of, you’re the yin yang, right? So she’s the creative and you’re like, let’s get the monies in order. Right? Mom,
Chelsea: Exactly. Exactly. So she has the fun side and then I make sure all the math and the numbers make sense.
Barb: It’s a great partnership right there. I think. so let’s dive in. So you work with hiring black women who are first in their families to build real wealth. So what is the moment you see over and over again when someone realizes this responsibility is now on them?
Chelsea: Yeah. So similar to myself, right when I mentioned that when I graduated from college and I started having conversations, I realized there was a disconnect in where. I was starting in comparison to some of my peers. With a lot of the hiring black women that we work with, we notice that same feeling where they start to have [00:09:00] conversations casually with their counterparts and they start to realize that maybe they aren’t doing as much as they thought they were.
Chelsea: Or they’ll realize somebody already has their state documents set up, or a trust, or their parents helped them with a down payment or even, waiting to get a financial advisor or a financial planner. So I think that’s when it typically, usually clicks for them and they say, okay, you know what? I’m saving and I am maxing out my retirement, so I’m putting enough in my 401k, but that’s not enough to really live the lifestyle that I wanna live.
Chelsea: And I’d say that’s usually the moment that we see over and over again where people start to reach out to us specifically and they realize they wanna have a better foundation to really building wealth.
Maggie: I feel like that’s like across the board, that’s a big thing where people wait of like, well, I don’t have kids. I don’t need an estate plan. Like, I don’t have 2 million, so I don’t need an advisor. And it’s like the first million’s the hardest to make right.
Chelsea: The first million is the hardest to make. We should put that on a [00:10:00] t-shirt, Maggie, like honestly.
Maggie: I am struggling with it right now. You know, I’m trying to get that million under my belt, and so it is hard to convince people to have those conversations especially if no one in your family has, you know, had a financial advisor, they’ve always been this 60-year-old white man.
Maggie: It’s kind of hard to be like, no, actually this is something you need. ’cause you seem like, no, it’s not something I need. Like, especially even if you’re just younger, you know, it’s like I’m, I’m 30, why would I need that? And you’re like, well it can, I really help.
Chelsea: It really can. And we know that the majority of people who have built significant wealth do have an advisor. And they know what their zone of genius is, right? Like what are the things they’re really good at? And they know that the things that they aren’t necessarily really good at, they’re going to outsource to make sure that they’re getting.
Chelsea: The best advice so that they can achieve their goals and go in the right direction. So I think it’s the same thing when you’re thinking about working with a financial planner or an advisor. Especially a lot of our clients are what we call those “Henry’s” or High Earners Not Rich Yet.
Chelsea:[00:11:00] And sometimes they struggle with the concept of I don’t have the assets yet, so like, do I really need an advisor? So much more that we talk about than just assets under management or investing that can be really helpful to push people in the right direction for their finances.
Let’s take a quick pause to hear from this week’s episode sponsor. Lemme ask you something, you’ve built a successful business, but does your financial plan actually support your whole life beyond just your work? Hi, I’m Randall Franklin with Franklin Wealth Management in Madisonville, Kentucky. I work with female entrepreneurs in business owners like you to create personalized strategies that support your entire life.
Not just your business. Women often face added pressure to balance family work and major financial decisions without clear guidance. Too often it feels like you’re expected to choose between your career and your life. My approach starts by understanding your full picture, both financial and non-financial, so it’s your plan actually works for you.
If [00:12:00] you’re ready to take a step back, see the big picture, and get clear on what matters most, let’s start there. You can find the link to schedule a call with me in the show notes. And I would love to help you take that next step with confidence. Now back to our show.
Barb: I love everything about what you just said because like Maggie said, people are like, I don’t have that much money. I really don’t need it. You know what I mean? That’s how you get the money. It’s by working with the experts who can help you parlay what you are earning or what you have saved into something that’s richer as you let it ride, you know, if you’re investing it correctly.
Barb: And in fact, I’m facilitating a session this week for women on why women should invest now, because women wait, right? They wait or they wait to invest or they don’t invest, they just put it in something really, really safe. And as we know, women will, for the most part, age alone, age solo, and they really need to make sure that they’re leveraging their investments as much as [00:13:00] possible because of that.
Barb: So your message to young women that. Start as soon as you can, learn as much as you can, and work with the right professionals, is so smart and don’t wait until you feel like now I’m 55 and now I can start working with a financial advisor. You’ve lost lots of time.
Chelsea: You really have, and those are the most disheartening conversations that I have when someone comes to me at 55 and I’m like, oh, we’ve missed so many years. Like I can’t pull a rabbit out of my hat, unfortunately. And, you know, we have to have the tough conversations, which could look like, you know, you need to work longer than you originally wanted to.
Chelsea: Or you just need to really adjust what your lifestyle will look like in retirement. And those are never the fun conversations, which is why I even wanted to create Zenith and position ourselves in this way. So at Zenith, our average client age is I believe 41 right now. I would say the majority sit between 35 and 55 [00:14:00] with some outliers on both sides.
Chelsea: But I’d say that’s really our sweet spot and it’s been a joy to help people at that space because we still have time to course correct. If there have been any bad habits or behaviors or even just sometimes mistakes or wrong decisions, we still have the time to play catch up. And fix it to make sure that they can live the life they want.
Maggie: And so I feel like that kind of leads us into our, our next question is, we hear discipline and sometimes to get back on the right path, we need discipline or something like that. But a lot of people then think, well, that means deprivation. Right? And I know you talk about how money, discipline without deprivation.
Maggie: So tell us how that looks like in real life.
Chelsea: So I think the deprivation element is sometimes because it feels like a sacrifice, right? Where I’m sacrificing X to do Y or it’s like, oh, I’m sacrificing my lattes, or whatever the case is to put money into my [00:15:00] 401k or my backdoor Roth IRA, or whatever it is. But I always try to encourage people to just reprogram their minds and thinking like, it’s not necessarily a sacrifice, but you’re really aligning with your future self and what you want to achieve, right?
Chelsea: So having the discipline in your spending and your saving and in your investing can help you say, you know, I’m not saying no, but maybe I’m just saying not right now. And I think when you reframe it as not right now, it doesn’t feel like a sacrifice or, you know, you can catch up maybe. later this year, next year in the future to do that thing.
Chelsea: It doesn’t necessarily feel as discouraging and I think that’s where the discipline to focus on in it, think about it in that way can be really helpful.
Barb: All right, Maggie, tell her about your account.
Maggie: My grandma account.
Barb: Mm-hmm.
Maggie: I have a little account that’s just labeled like 80-year-old Maggie, and it has like a little old lady emoji on it.
Chelsea: I love that.
Maggie: Whenever like, you know, the investments go in there or like, I think that’s the way it’s on my app, like my budget tracker. [00:16:00] And so when like the money goes to my investment account, that’s how it looks in my budget tracker.
Maggie: And so it’s like envisioning, you know, I’m so done with like savings account number too, like retirement, even the name 401k, like that’s a line item on a legal document,
Maggie: you know, 4 0 1 point k, like please. And so having that vision of like, okay, what does 80-year-old Maggie want? You know, then that makes, you know, skipping that meal out or something like that way better ’cause I know she’s gonna be needy and she’s gonna wanna travel and she’s gonna have a lot of things she wants to do. And so giving up, you know, a meal out to eat now and then here. It was really beneficial.
Chelsea: I love that idea honestly. Maggie, can I take that? That is a
Chelsea: great idea because it makes it so much more motivational too, because I don’t understand the obsession with combining numbers and letters into retirement accounts. But Maggie at 80 or Maggie at 65, like, we can all feel that right and understand why we wanna have enough money for them.
Barb:[00:17:00] Yeah.
Maggie: we gotta make it, you know, not so drab all the time. Not so the plain blue and the gray and the drab, we’re not doing it.
Chelsea: No, not at all.
Maggie: so what are some like rules or like guidelines, you know, you clients can use to kind of change this discipline to deprivation?
Chelsea: Yeah. So for individuals who sometimes struggle with or feel like they’re juggling multiple different, layers of their finances. I say always try to automate as much as you can. So one of the simplest things that we typically like to do, especially with clients who are just getting started, is just seeing how much we can automate directly from their paycheck.
Chelsea: So it’s one less thing that they have to think about. So if we decide we want to put. 30% into savings. Instead of giving them that extra job on a monthly basis to transfer it from their checking to their savings, we just set it up automatically through the paycheck and pretty consistently for people who have trouble with saving or knowing where their money is going, that out of sight outta mind element.
Chelsea: Is a really [00:18:00] helpful way where that money’s able to go into savings, and then from there you can directly have it into the investments. Some paycheck providers allow you to put it directly into the investments from your paycheck, but I’d say it’s very few. So typically that’s why we like to lean on the directly going from the paycheck into savings, the savings into the investment.
Chelsea: We don’t even look at that account. We keep it inconvenient. So it’s at a separate bank than your checking or your credit cards. And then that’s where you can really just focus on and automate that wealth building so that you’re putting yourself first, whether it’s today or whether it’s even you at 65 or 80.
Barb: Yeah, keep it simple, right? Keep it simple outta sight, outta mind and just make it happen on the regular. So cool.
Barb: So your clients, they focus on being work optional. Can you speak to that? Like how is that different from retirement?
Chelsea: So it’s so funny because. Some would say it is close to retirement, but I think retirement is [00:19:00] going through a rebrand right now where work optional just feels more exciting. Because when we think about retirement, and when I ask clients, I was like, what do you want retirement to look like to you? And they’re like, oh, Chelsea, I don’t wanna end up on a beach in Florida.
Chelsea: Like there is that assumption of what retirement looks like. Maybe because they spoke to other family members or friends or even television, it probably has all had an impact. But what they’ve really said is that they want to have a life where they have the choice, where they have control of what they do next.
Chelsea: And that could be, you know, pivoting into purpose-driven work, maybe nonprofit work, maybe board service, maybe starting a business or doing consulting. But I think a lot of our clients, like they have, they’re the backbone of their family, right. Or of their communities. And they’re typically the first in their family to be making the level of income that they’re making.
Chelsea: So there is this sense of pressure where they don’t wanna feel like they’re messing it up and that they’re not taking advantage of a great [00:20:00] opportunity. So when we say work optional lifestyle, what we’re saying is they want to have the choice to not have to work just to survive, but to really thrive and work in things that are aligned with their passion and their purpose that really bring them joy and peace in ways that, you know, maybe during their working years or even their childhood, they didn’t necessarily feel like they had.
Maggie: I was recently, like at this session where this woman was talking, she retired from her job of like 30 years where she was working high up on the board, took a couple months off, and then somebody’s like, Hey, there’s this open board position at this hospital where actually her daughter was and her daughter went through, I don’t know, cancer or something like that.
Maggie: And so she was really involved in the hospital and she’s like, it was so great to them not have to work, have this breathing time, but then being able to go to the sport, bring all those great skills I had from being at this company for so long and applying ’em here, having that passion, kind of doing that through the life of my daughter and giving all that back and, yeah, you still made income. That’s great. But it wasn’t like, I need [00:21:00] a job for income. And so it was nice to kind of have that flow and see, you know, what does life bring me for that next chapter? Where can I apply these skills that I’ve worked so hard to sharpen and bring it somewhere where I have that passion?
Maggie: And it’s not like, well, if you’re not making 300K a year, you know, the family’s not retiring. You know, it’s like this middle where Yeah, it’s still a job. Like commitment. I am committed to it. I have to show up, but it’s not, you know, this is gonna make or break the family bank account.
Chelsea: Right. And it’s really that second act that it sounds like she’s really invested in and trying to figure out what joy looks like in that space too. We actually have a client who is going through this phase right now, and she’s doing it more as a sabbatical. And it’s so interesting because when she was working her traditional corporate job there were cashflow issues, budgeting issues.
Chelsea: We were really trying to make sure that she stayed the course with a lot of our recommendations around her cashflow. And she felt like she needed to make a significant amount of money and she couldn’t leave because of her lifestyle was so expensive. She got to the point where she [00:22:00] was at her, her job and she was just fed up.
Chelsea: So she ended up deciding to take a year off. And in that year off, she has spent less than half of what she was spending at corporate. And what we realized was she was just so unhappy in the situation she was in, that she was just spending and spending because she needed to feel like she had control of something in her life.
Chelsea: Where now she’s like, I actually don’t think I need that much. I’m ready to go back to corporate, but something that excites me and she’s willing to take pay, that’s half the pay. So I say all that to say like, sometimes like the space that you’re in is not aligned with where you need to be too.
Chelsea: And sometimes some poor financial habits could actually be more of a reflection of certain things you’re feeling internally.
Barb: Yeah, it really is. and maybe we retire that word, retirement,
Maggie: It used to be such a short time where now if you retire at 65 and live to a hundred, you got time to kill.
Barb: you need a lot of money.
Chelsea: And that’s the thing that people forget about the most is, you know, individuals [00:23:00] will say, you know, Chelsea, I wanna retire earlier at 50 or 55. And I’m like, well, as a woman, your life expectancy could be up to 95, so we need your money to now last 45 years.
Chelsea: Like we have to do more than just putting the maximum into your 401k or your IRA.
Chelsea: We need this money to last at the same lifestyle that you want to have right now, roughly. That’s a long time to make sure that you don’t run outta money. And to make sure that you’re keeping up with inflation. So I think that’s the piece that, that a lot of our clients, when they first come to us, they underestimate, they’re so focused on the year that they can stop.
Chelsea: They’re not thinking about how long their money needs to last when they do stop.
Maggie: And I like how the one lady kind of took a year sabbatical, like it’s not like work endlessly until 65. It’s like, take a year off, enjoy it, then get back at it when you’re feeling refreshed. It’s not like this marathon. You can, you can take a break.
Chelsea: Absolutely. And she ended up she purchased an investment property during her break um, she’s been having so much [00:24:00] fun decorating it and now renting it out. And she was able to build a stream of income, another stream of income during this break, and then now she’s ready to get back.
Barb: That’s awesome. I love it. But what are the biggest. Financial mistakes you see women make when they’re planning, you know, a transition like from an employer to an owner or entrepreneur. So many women are leaving the workforce ‘ cause they can’t take the corporate anymore. Or they’ve hit a place where they know they’re not gonna get.
Barb: Much higher on the ladder and they know they can do more, and they know they can earn more, you know, they’re positive, they feel very good about their skillset, but it’s really a skinny limb when you do that, right? When you leave, what some people call the golden handcuffs, you know, your benefits, your bonuses, and all of that to really be your own owner or entrepreneur.
Chelsea: Yeah. Well this is also a reflection on Chelsea five years ago too, right? When I left that firm, I did not take any clients. I truly started [00:25:00] from ground zero and I think the best decision I made was to make sure I had at least 12 months of expenses saved. And that really gave me the peace of mind to know, okay, I can cover all of my bills as I figure out, you know, what I’m trying to build, who I wanna work with.
Chelsea: Because I think the hardest thing if you do decide to create your own business or go out on your own is sales. And when you’re selling from a place of desperation people can feel that, right? They can feel like, all right, this person’s getting a little aggressive. It seems like they really need the money.
Chelsea: And that’s not a good experience for anyone. So I think when you can feel confident in where you are and you have that transition fund, whether it’s nine or 12 months, it just gives you the peace of mind to really reflect on what you need and not have to worry about the cash flow. I think another piece is, when you are going out on your own understanding that you need to charge enough to cover your expenses and not shortchanging yourself because of fear or comparison or you’re [00:26:00] unsure some of the best advice I received from somebody as I was going out on my journey was she was like, well, what would you do if you were a 27-year-old male?
Chelsea: And I was like, well, I wouldn’t even be having this conversation with you right now. And she was like, that is exactly my point. Like you have to have that confidence in believing yourself because there are people with less experience or potentially even less credentials. Who just have the audacity to, to do the things that you would like to do.
Chelsea: So try not to be shy and lean into the zone of genius and the expertise you have built. So I think that’s an important part, especially for women who are moving from potentially employee to owner or entrepreneur or something that is just a little bit more around their own self and creating their own income.
Chelsea: I think those are the biggest pieces that they need to keep in mind.
Maggie: God to channel a 27-year-old white boy’s audacity.
Barb: you can channel all that. But you know, we have, even in our positions today, I can’t tell you how many people have come to us and wanted our services for [00:27:00] free.
Chelsea: Really? Yeah.
Barb: yeah.
Barb: And sometimes it’s other women.
Chelsea: I think that’s when it gets, that’s definitely when it gets tough or discouraging. And that’s happened also in the beginning with us as well. Of course our, costs or our fees were not the same in 2020 as they are in 2026. But I think the way I found peace and comfort with it is the amount of people on our team everyone on our team is either a woman or a person of color or both.
Chelsea: So if I am not charging enough to take care of them to make sure that they can take care of their families. I’m actually potentially doing a disservice and widening the gender wealth gap, the racial wealth gap, all of these pieces if I can’t take care of the people that we have here. So I think that has given me the comfort of knowing, like my commitment is to making sure everyone here can take care of themselves.
Chelsea: And then for anyone else who does want to potentially work with us or support our services in other ways, we still do offer, we do group coaching and pro bono with nonprofits. If anyone ever wants to have a call, we always [00:28:00] offer an intro call where they can ask us any questions for free. So we do try to balance it out, making sure that our mission is aligned, but we are running a business at the same time.
Maggie: I love that. And so when you explained how you saved like 12 months worth of your living expenses kept in a high yield savings account, maybe.
Chelsea: Kept in a high yield savings account. Yep.
Maggie: Okay. And then did you, on top of that, save more money that you knew was gonna go like, actually to build the business, you know, buy, get the license, buy the programs, things like that.
Maggie: Or is that part of, outta that 12 months as well?
Chelsea: That’s a great question. So that was a combination of part of that and then also like since Jason and I were partnered together. We did have like a pool of capital that was specifically for that. But we were really fortunate that the money that we were bringing in initially as we partnered, was enough just to cover the expenses.
Chelsea: So it was able to, we didn’t necessarily pay ourselves very much, if anything in that first year, but at least the money coming in, was able to just cover the [00:29:00] expenses.
Maggie: Yeah, that’s always a great win. And sometimes it’s just hard to figure out like, okay, I have my own living expenses, but what am I gonna put into the business? Did I chart that out? And all those things because. I mean those systems add up the license, add up the, you know, lawyers add up whatever you need to, to get all those business essentials started.
Maggie: Which, you know, we talk about, we had a podcast on, you know, business insurance and getting the right legal things and all of that stuff, which it all adds up.
Chelsea: It does. Legal fees are the ones that are, I think are the most painful personally.
Maggie: it’s cheaper than court.
Chelsea: it is, absolutely.
Barb: so when you talk about legacy for first generation wealth builders, where do you
Barb: actually start?
Chelsea: Ooh, that’s a good question. So. We try to ask them, what does legacy and wealth mean to you? To really get a better understanding of what’s most important to them. And this answer is always gonna be different, dependent on if individuals have children or if they don’t. Or yeah, just thinking about how they’ve talked about [00:30:00] finances, potentially what their.
Chelsea: Wider family. we always ask, you know, who do you want to protect? Who do you want to empower? And then we think about what are the tools they would need for this, whether it’s creating their estate documents, potentially creating a trust so they have a little bit more control from the grave, thinking about life insurance.
Chelsea: And then if their family is really working together. Coming up with a family financial plan that is bigger than just the parents or our direct clients, but thinking about what they truly want their family to feel and understand what do they want their giving to look like? What do they want education to look like?
Chelsea: What do they want financial freedom or ownership to look like? Because it’s really not about just what you leave behind. But it’s about the intentional life you live and the values and the beliefs that you instill in others. And I think that’s the biggest piece about your legacy as well. So that’s typically how we like to start the conversation.
Maggie: So what does like your legacy look like to you? Chelsea?
Chelsea: Ooh, that is a great question. [00:31:00] So my legacy to me looks like, encouraging and empowering the next generation of female advisors to have the similar, if not better success than me where they know that there is a path and a purpose to working with people they wanna work with profitably and successfully.
Chelsea: That would be, that would. Be the highlight. If I do nothing else, that would be a dream of a successful legacy along with just really being able to give back to where my family is from. So I have family in Trinidad and Tobago, so I always say I want to be a better bridge to my family that’s still there, whether it’s through business ownership or financial literacy.
Chelsea: Those are the things that really define my legacy.
Maggie: I love that. That’s awesome.
Barb: And we read that you like, is it carnival?
Chelsea: I do. Yes. Yes, you have to come. It is a full experience at [00:32:00] Trinidad and Tobago and Brazil are the two largest carnivals in the, in the world. So it is truly a fun experience for you. Just get to celebrate culture for a
Chelsea: week. Yes.
Barb: How fun. Yeah.
Maggie: Legacy is, is always interesting. I think about the, like the one Beyonce song where she talks about leaving all her dresses to her daughter, you know, and that’s your legacy and all this like money of how like my, your great, my great grandkids are already richer than you.
Maggie: And I think about just like the wealth that trickles down, but what else can that legacy be besides just cash. You know what I mean? And so I love how yours is also that education and making sure that path is, you know, smoother to walk down and maybe a bit shorter and, and things of those nature too.
Maggie: It’s not just like making sure that the money, you know, trickles down to your great, great grandchildren,
Maggie: even though they would appreciate that.
Chelsea: right. Well, now I’m, I’m curious, what does legacy mean to both of you?
Barb: Well, for me, that’s an easy one. I mean, [00:33:00] purse strings is my legacy in terms of our mission of really making sure that women have a go-to resource where they can get financial tools and resources to help them make smart financial decisions for themselves, their families, their businesses, and then when they need to hire a financial professional.
Barb: We have a vetted list of financial professionals from attorneys and lenders and realtors and financial planners who serve women who serve a female market. So we’ve kind of encapsulated this boutique, if you will, cadre of amazing men and women who are in financial services, who really wanna lift up women and really want to be part of their financial journey and make sure that they can also live a beautiful life full of choices.
Maggie: And mine, I would definitely, it’s something around, you know, making sure that that wealth gap is starting to be closed or is smaller after I’m done with my work. Because you know, it, [00:34:00] it has to be, it needs to be. And something about just ke making sure women know their power and their strength because we haven’t always had all of this opportunity.
Maggie: And so making sure we have it and we hold it and we use it. And also, yeah, just making sure that. You know, my, my loved ones, if they have any financial issues, you know, they always can have some support. So no one’s, no one’s floundering
Maggie: yeah. We don’t have to put Dr. Barb out on the street.
Maggie: You know, if we need to put her in a long-term care home, I’ll pay for the long-term
Chelsea: Yeah, exactly.
Barb: that’s what I raised before, girl.
Maggie: So, you know, if. A high earning woman, maybe even more specifically, a black woman is worried about, you know, messing it up. What’s like one of the first couple things you’d want her to focus on, you know, this year to start going down that right path?
Chelsea: Okay, so the first one is going to be tracking and mastering your cash flow. So my favorite tools that I [00:35:00] always encourage, Zenith clients to take a look at our monarch money and then copilot since we lost mint. It’s been very sad, but.
Maggie: I am all copilot.
Chelsea: Oh yeah, co-pilot’s great. Monarch money is pretty good too, especially for couples.
Chelsea: But I love copilot. It’s been really easy to use. But I think the biggest thing is you really need to know your numbers to know how effectively they’re growing. And we know that when it comes to building wealth, your savings rate is just as important as the rate of return that you’re trying to receive in your investment accounts.
Chelsea: So the amount that you’re putting into investments is just as important. As, as fast as it’s growing. So really understanding your cash flow, that is absolutely crucial. And then starting to invest in your own education. So especially when it comes to investments, if you feel like you’re behind, like you’re absolutely not alone, but the only way is to start to read books, listen to podcasts like this, and understand how you can really get a better handle of some of the terms.
Chelsea: There was a statistic that came out by aerial [00:36:00] investments, and it was in collaboration with Charles Schwab where they said 45% of black investors don’t fully understand the sectors they’re invested in, but 68% under 40 are actively investing. So that means that there’s a gap, right? So if people are, more people are invested than ever before, which is amazing, but they also don’t fully understand what they’re investing in.
Chelsea: And this is where I start to get a pause and I get worried because we know that there’s been things in the past in regard to. Black people trying to get access to financial services or investing and potentially negative things happening to them in those instances. So I think it’s just really important that there’s education first to make sure we fully understand what we’re investing in.
Chelsea: And then lastly, I would say thinking about the big five areas of financial planning, so cash flow, investments, taxes, estate, and insurance. You do not need to hit all of those at once. I like to say focus [00:37:00] on one or two each year and just really hone in on it and understand it to make sure that you’re building out a cohesive wealth strategy for you.
Maggie: I feel like I mentioned those five words to anyone, and they just no longer want to talk to me. You know what I
Maggie: mean? Like
Chelsea: That is fair. The ones that I think the way that I’ve had a lot of success is just bringing it up in ways that they can truly relate to. So reminding them, oh, for example, when my grandparents passed away dealing with the estate and everything was such a headache. It was such a heavy lift.
Chelsea: But the fact that we had life insurance and insurance is the first thing that you can access when someone passes away just made it easier to be able to cover the. Funeral and any additional costs as we got on, on our feet. And when I talk to clients, they have a story like that, right? Maybe it was a family member that did have everything organized and it worked really well, or they didn’t, and it was a mess and it just created so many problems.
Chelsea: And I think toggling into those memories is a good reminder and a good motivation [00:38:00] on the why behind we’re doing these things, right?
Maggie: I mean, Chelsea and Maggie saying it is a great reason, but It does help make it like applicable and being like, alright, so when am I gonna see this cash again? It’s like, well you, you might not, you might be in the grave, but your family will and this is why they appreciate it, you know, and, and
Maggie: Absolutely.
Maggie: things.
Barb: Yeah, it’s a love letter to your family.
Chelsea: A love letter to your family. I like that. So legacy financial education and financial planning is a love letter to your
Chelsea: family.
Maggie: There you go.
Chelsea: Another t-shirt.
Barb: Yeah,
Barb: you should. We should do a t-shirt business.
Maggie: This has been just such a great conversation. I feel just more empowered being here, you know, talking about it. There is a question we like to ask everybody who’s on the podcast. So Chelsea, what is your own definition of financial freedom?
Chelsea: Ooh. Financial freedom for me is having the flexibility to choose where I want to go in life without having to feel, stress or worry and to know that I can say yes to [00:39:00] opportunities. And I’m not truly defined just by my monthly paycheck. So I think that’s where I can really live on my own terms and honestly, it’s probably work optional lifestyle.
Chelsea: I know we’ve said a lot on this podcast. I was trying to avoid it again, but I think that’s really what financial freedom means to me, is having the choice to do things that I’m passionate about and I love, and I don’t have to worry about my monthly paycheck.
Barb: Sounds perfect to me.
Maggie: Well, yeah. Thank you Chelsea, for coming on, for sharing your expertise. Of course, all of her information will be in the show notes so you can reach out, connect, and keep the conversation going. like, we said, it’s great to talk to a financial planner early. So let’s get started. Talk to Chelsea, talk to one of our purse strings of proof professionals and let’s take some action.
Chelsea: Absolutely. Let’s get to it for 2026.
Maggie: Ooh.
Barb: here’s the 2026 ladies chairs.
Outro: You’ve been listening to Women Money, the shit we don’t talk about. Now it’s time to take what you’ve learned and make bold moves towards financial independence. Stay in the know by [00:40:00] joining our newsletter for exclusive tools, resources, and updates that keep you financially fearless. Head to PurseStrings. co and sign up today. Need a financial professional who gets it? Turn to PurseStrings Curated Directory, your go to resource for financial experts who know how to put you first. Love this episode? Leave us a review and help us empower even more women to own their financial power. Until next time, be financially fearless.
What I learned After Losing $90,000 in Real Estate with Kayla Hamrick
Getting scammed out of $90,000 will change you. Or it will break you.
This week on Women & Money: The Shit We Don’t Talk About, we’re joined by Kayla Hamrick, real estate investor and founder of Money Match.
Kayla shares the real story behind losing $45,000 in a real estate deal and another $45,000 in legal fees trying to recover it. No sugarcoating. No hype. Just the truth about what went wrong, what she learned, and why private money lending can feel like the wild west.
We talk about why contracts don’t always protect you, how enforcement is where deals actually fall apart, and why women are often taught to stay small when it comes to money conversations.
Kayla also breaks down what private money lending actually is, the documents that matter, and the exact questions women should ask before saying yes to a deal.
This conversation is honest, practical, and empowering in the real way. The way that helps you move smarter, not smaller.
Want to take this conversation one step further? Join us for our next Money Talks, a free 30 minute live session where we’ll tackle “Budgeting for Businesses”. Click here to registerfor FREE and bring your questions!
Disclosure:
Securities offered by Registered Representatives and Advisory products and services offered by Investment Advisory Representatives through Private Client Services, member FINRA/SIPC, and a Registered Investment Advisor. Private Client Services and Blue Ocean Global Wealth are unaffiliated entities.
Follow & Connect with Purse Strings
Stay connected for more real talk about women, money, divorce, and financial independence:
Barbara Provost, EdD and Maggie Nielsen, MBA are the co-founders of Purse Strings, a national platform helping women make confident financial decisions by connecting them with vetted financial professionals who truly understand women’s lives and money needs. Purse Strings connects women across the U.S. with vetted financial professionals who specialize in supporting women through divorce, money transitions, and financial independence.
Full Episode Transcript
(This transcript was generated using AI, so please excuse any misspellings or errors)
Maggie:[00:00:00] All right. Have you ever had to like, just pay a debt to the universe? you paid some money, you probably lost it, and you just kind of wrote it off of like, that’s that’s the debt I paid to the world.
Barb: I think we all have, I don’t think we get this far in life without paying some debt to the universe, and I think it’s about. Learning, right? You go forward and you invest or you purchase something. Maybe it’s a house, maybe it’s a wardrobe, maybe it’s investing in a new job where you’ve moved across the country and things didn’t work out.
Barb: I think there are many, many experiences in life where we pay a debt and I love how our guests called it a debt to the universe and how it’s about really learning and becoming sharper and failing fast and moving on.
Maggie: It’s so hard. I feel not to sit on it and sulk on it, but it’s kind of like, you gotta get up, you gotta get back at it. You gotta go make up for your losses and march forward. But it’s hard to have that attitude sometimes, and there is a point where it’s like, all right, I get two days to sulk and then we’re [00:01:00] gonna, we’re gonna get up and we’re gonna do the thing.
Maggie: It’s kind of like you can have some salting time, that’s fine. And then you gotta get back at it.
Barb: Yeah. Well, and I think in life, I mean, there’s many things that don’t always go our way that we’d hoped. Yeah, it’s true Maggie. And so, we have to figure, life goes on and it’s not really always the problem in front of you, but it’s how you respond and react to it, and I think maturity comes with realizing that. You know what? This is what happened. I acknowledge it. This is my debt to the universe, and what did I learn from It was, I think, most as an educator. Most important. If you don’t learn from it and do something different, then shame on you. You’re gonna pay more debts to the universe, probably. But if you can acknowledge it, give yourself grace, right?
Barb: We all make mistakes. We’re human and realize, no one was hurt in the, in the investment I made, or, nobody was damaged, it was just money lost or something like that time lost, whatever it might be job loss, you can always recover.
Maggie: Barb’s just [00:02:00] spitting from the mic this morning.
Barb: I feel passionate about it. You don’t go through life without some big major mistakes. Even divorce, which I’ve been through. It’s not easy. You work through it day by day and you realize this is the goodness from that relationship. This is why I need to move on.
Barb: So it’s just like anything else. We all have. We’re gonna experience death to the universe, and I love, love, love that term.
Maggie: Well, I can’t wait to dive into this episode because our guest, Kayla paid a $90,000 debt to the universe, and she goes about it in just such a positive way that I’m gonna work on channeling a bit more just getting back up and getting back at it. So I’m excited for our audience to hear this and to hear about another great investment opportunity as again, it’s not always stocks and bonds.
Maggie: So I think we should just dive right in.
Barb: I think we should dive right in and see how she not only gave it to the universe, but the universe is coming back with her because she is killing it now [00:03:00] and she’s got an offer to everyone who wants to invest in real estate in terms of making it easy for you now. So she’s learned and used all of her great goodness and learning to better the rest of us.
Maggie: But a universe always has you. You just gotta trust her.
Maggie: Let’s do it.
Gloria Steinem once said, we will never solve the feminization of power until we solve the masculinity of wealth. Barbara Provost and Maggie Nielsen are the team at purse strings that will help you navigate the ins and outs of financial independence so that you can be financially fearless. This is women in money, the shit we don’t talk about.
Maggie: All right, today we have Kayla Hamrick on the pod. I’m so excited to share the story with our audiences. I think, this will just be a nice one that hits home for everyone. So, Kayla, before we dive into all the questions we have for you, share a little [00:04:00] bit about who you are and what you do with the audience.
Kayla: I am Kayla Hamrick, and I do a lot of things, but right now I am launching a platform for investors to do real estate deals faster. It’s a jungle of craziness in the real estate world, and so I’m matching people seamlessly so they can do deals faster.
Maggie: Awesome. And you’re in California, right?
Kayla: Right. Yeah.
Maggie: All right. Any other fun facts we should know about you?
Kayla: Ooh, oh. I’ll say I love volleyball. I love running on the beach and I love anything to do with helping women. So I’m just, this is the perfect spot to be and I’m grateful to be here
Maggie: Awesome. Love it. I wanna go play on the beach in California.
Barb: Not here in the frozen tundra of chicago.
Maggie: Yeah, yesterday Caleb was trying to be like, oh, it’s 72 degrees, and she was wearing a coat. I was like, Ooh, it’s 30 degrees here, and I shouldn’t even complain.
Barb: Oh my gosh, it’s colder here. I [00:05:00] win, I win. It’s gonna be like below zero tomorrow, so Ah.
Kayla: You are a strong one.
Maggie: Well, let’s just jump right into the juice. You lost about $90,000 in a real estate deal. 90,000. Can you walk us through what happened and what you felt like in that moment emotionally?
Kayla: Definitely disbelief. I was raised in a very like strict, honest family. And so I was just still in that bubble, assuming that people like did honest deals with each other. And so what I did is I lent money. Like you were saying, Maggie, on a real estate deal for a fix and flipper, and it was pretty clear cut.
Kayla: You give me this, I’ll flip the house, I give you that all good. And instead of that happening, he just didn’t actually complete the deal and just walked away and ghosted me. So emotionally
Kayla: it was more like just shock and whiplash. It was good though because it woke me [00:06:00] up to protecting myself.
Barb: So Kayla, what was your role in this transaction? How did it work? It was a man, a gentleman. We’ll call him a gentleman for now, but,
Barb: he’s a man. So what was his responsibility and what was yours?
Kayla: Great question. This was a private money lending deal. So in the real estate industry, there’s always a project that needs financing and most banks or lenders will finance about 70% of the deal, and that’s it. Because that keeps them pretty low risk. So
Kayla: for fix and flippers who need to close these deals or have multiple deals on the table, that could be tens to hundreds of thousands of dollars.
Kayla: They need to have skin in the game. It’s a lot, and a lot of people don’t have that. So they go and find remaining financing from private lenders like me, you, their friends, family, dentist, whoever they want. So my responsibility was bringing in remaining financing that he needed for this project, and his [00:07:00] responsibility was to complete the house flip, and then upon sale, he was going to pay me out of the proceeds.
Barb: So this was your personal money you were lending him.
Kayla: Yeah.
Barb: And then did you have a contract or an agreement in place?
Kayla: We did, this is why I thought I was “safe” is because I did X, Y, Z, like what the real estate gurus say to do. In hindsight, I look back and these real estate gurus are the ones borrowing. So they’re gonna teach you how to lend that favors them. There’s no maltintent here, but that’s their perspective they’re teaching from.
Kayla: So I was like, ‘oh yeah. I have the paperwork. It says, here’s the promissory note. You owe me this much. And you also want to have more than that ’cause that’s just a note. That doesn’t mean anything unless you have more documents to protect you. So I also got a lien position on the property and I thought, ‘hey, I’m covered, right? Like if you sell it, my name is on there as someone who’s owed’. However, I did not process this through a [00:08:00] title company and unfortunately the notary stamped it wrong and the state of California refused to recognize that as a valid document.
Barb: Oh, did you know about the title company process.
Kayla: My first deal.
Maggie: Okay, so I was gonna ask, have you done a deal before? This was kind of the first
Maggie: one.
Kayla: I was all fired up, ready to have financial freedom, and I definitely did all the wrong things.
Barb: So how does somebody like him, the man, how does he walk away and get scot-free from this?
Maggie: Yeah, Barb wants to know how to get $90,000.
Barb: You think you’re doing all the right things and it sounds like you were, how can someone just walk away from that?
Kayla: Right. So, this happens unfortunately too much which is why you have to have the right docs in place to not allow that. He has a note, so technically he can’t walk away ’cause the promissory note binds him to this deal. It’s the enforcement of the note that is the difficult part.
Kayla: And [00:09:00] that’s what lets him walk away because he knows if he can just get me tired enough through the legal system and use up my money on lawyers, he can get away. So it’s really about waiting out the enforcement part is what he did.
Barb: So it sounds like he was pretty keen, and maybe he’s done this before.
Kayla:Serial scammer.
Barb: Oh, bummer.
Kayla: And he is a realtor still practicing in California?
Barb: You can’t report him to the Board of
Barb: Realtors
Kayla: Yeah. I reported him to
Kayla: the DRE and they said there’s insufficient evidence.
Barb: What happened to the property?
Kayla: You know, It’s so funny because you would think I would be like, all on top of this like a daylight show, but I believe he sold it off at loss.
Maggie: So when you realize the money was gone, the legal fees were stacking up, you know, what was kind of that hardest part to process? You know, the money, the broken trust or kind of like how you felt about like, you’re gonna dive in, do this big investment, you know, and now it’s like, can I trust myself?
Kayla: Oh my gosh. Yeah. I am proud of myself for not getting too [00:10:00] emotional about it and being emotional is a gift. So I’m not saying that, that doesn’t have a place, but in the regards of investing and finances. For me, going into a deal, you don’t wanna be emotional about a deal. And that’s exactly why I got in trouble is I got all excited about the flashy returns.
Kayla: It was, you know, like, ‘Ooh, this is my first deal, I’m gonna do it’. I should have been way more neutral and calculated. So to answer your question. I was actually pretty unemotional about it and I was very kind of like action oriented. Like, okay, this happened. Hell no. Am I gonna let that happen to me again?
Kayla: I also was like, I’m not letting other people go through this. And so I learned as much as I could. I started talking to attorneys. I talked to like more seasoned lenders, like private money lenders, talked to friends in the industry and started like picking up skills that would allow me to be protected the next time around and the next time around.
Kayla: And unfortunately, I, I think it’s like [00:11:00] with any industry, I’m a nurse practitioner actually. You can learn and learn and learn, but it’s like when you really go through something is when you really learn it. And so I think. To, to summarize it, I didn’t get emotional and and I learned what I could, and I think that was very helpful because I didn’t play the victim card.
Kayla: I think that would’ve kept me in a unproductive mode for a while. And so I just picked up, moved on because really what was my alternative? Just like cry about my money. Like, no, I am gotta go make that back.
Barb: It’s risk reward, right? And you know what they say? Fail fast, right? Fail fast, learn from it, pick yourself up, get that behind you. And now you’re that much smarter. But you know, a lot of women, they go straight to this whole blame situation. Did you experience that? And if you did, what helped you move through it instead of letting it kind of define you because you did move ahead.
Kayla: Yeah, I would say not so much like self blame, but just responsibility. [00:12:00] Like, wow, you know, you probably should have gone slower. Probably should have vetted this guy better. So many things I didn’t do, but I didn’t know what I didn’t know. So I think it was just more like personal accountability, but without the weight of judgment.
Kayla: It’s like, okay, it happened. And I think that was really productive for me.
Maggie: Yeah, you were able to just kind of write it off and it is kind of like, well, I could sulk on it, you know, I could pay four times the amount and legal fees, or I could get back at it and make the money. Like it’s not gonna make itself, right. and I know when we were talking, you’re kind of like, that’s the debt I paid to the universe.
Maggie: And it’s gonna come back, which I think is just a great perspective. And there are some things I don’t know, that we’ve all kind of written off. Like it’s gonna come around sometime, right? Like he’s gonna get his karma. I’m gonna get, you know, a random windfall or something. It all comes around. When, couldn’t tell you how, don’t know.
Barb: And let’s be clear, when you’re making deals like this or you’re an entrepreneur, [00:13:00] it’s all about risk, right? We’re on a skinny limb most of the time. We have a passion. We’re trying to make the best decisions possible, talking to the best experts, and sometimes things are not gonna work out, and you’re gonna lose.
Barb: Sometimes things are gonna work out and you’re gonna win. So, you need to be thick skinned. I think when you’re in these types of situations and you need to buck up and say, ha heck, I’m learning from this. It’s only money. You know what I always say? No one’s dying. And we’re gonna figure out where we went wrong.
Barb: We’re going to recalibrate and move on. So for listeners hearing this for the first time, can you explain a little bit about this private money lending in simple terms and why it even exists?
Kayla: So real estate deals across the country is a $5 trillion business in just investments. And so these deals, like I was saying earlier to buy land or to buy the, you know, [00:14:00] apartment complex. Most banks are not going to go above 70% of the purchase price. So if someone wants to buy, we’re just gonna keep it so simple like a home that is in disrepair and they’re going to fix it up for profit.
Kayla: Most people are familiar with fix and flips these days. So, most banks will only finance, you know, 70% of the purchase and maybe 70% of the construction costs. And these are, when I say banks, it’s usually, it’s called Hard Money Lending. It’s these private companies who have lots of cash from insurance companies and big hedge funds.
Kayla: They get this money and they disperse it for fix and flip loans. But they are very smart and they’re like, we are not going over 70% of the total cost of the the property ’cause they know that if things go wrong and this person disappears off the face of the planet, well, now we have this junky house and now they can sell it and not lose money.
Kayla: So what do people do when they have a million dollar [00:15:00] house that they bought? They’re only getting 700 K to work with, you know, that’s 300 k they have to figure out, right.
Kayla: And so some of it’s gonna come from their savings or all of it, or they can’t have the deal. So what they’ll do is they’ll go out and find again, like people like me and you, and they say, you know, I know this is a higher risk deal.
Kayla: And so they offer higher interest rates. For sure starting at 12% annualized. But I mean, I was telling Maggie, like, I have a, borrowers that give me 30 and 50% returns. I’ve been getting that regularly, but I don’t wanna paint that picture as like, all private money lenders get those types of returns,
Kayla: and you can, and that’s what I love about this industry is, is that anything’s possible? It just depends on the negotiation and every deal is different. So back to why this is here. This is how investment, we call them operators like investment real estate investors get deals done. It’s called OPM, and I’m sure you guys have talked about that on your podcast.
Kayla: Other [00:16:00] people’s money. Using that allows you to scale your business in, I’m sure many different industries, but especially real estate, allows you to take on more projects and scale.
Maggie: I know you kind of described it as like the wild West right now.
Maggie: Tell us more about why it’s the Wild West. I mean, there’s so many things with money and you think about buying a house and you know, there’s all these processes and legal papers and blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, that you have to go through.
Maggie: So that seems from an outsider’s perspective, pretty locked down.
Kayla: That’s a great thought. I will say like buying the house, you know, is it goes through a title company. A lawyer will process it often, and that you’re right, like the standard buying of a house is very regulated, however, private money is not. And so when a deal goes through the title company they’re just processing the paperwork that you signed with this borrower so it could say anything on it.
Kayla: And they’re like, okay, if that’s what you want, you know, like we will record it. But I [00:17:00] learned I can say whatever I want in the contract and make an agreement with the borrower. And I’ve had conflicts where I’ve talked to the attorney in that state that I did the deal in, and they said, that doesn’t hold any water here, or that’s an excess fee that you can’t charge this borrower.
Kayla: And I’m like, well, they are the one who said it. You know, like they offered these really high penalty fees what do you call late fees? I just agreed and said yes, and they’re like, ‘ that’s not gonna work.’ So my point is, people are signing contracts thinking they’re protected and it can mean nothing. And there’s no one regulating that. There’s no one saying, you can’t put that in that contract, unless you’re paying thousands of dollars to a lawyer before you close. So many people just make deals on a handshake or on paperwork hoping that it holds in court, and it may or may not. And also just the legal process.
Kayla: If something goes wrong, can truly be exhausting and like an expensive. And so, when I
Kayla: say Wild West, it’s just [00:18:00] people are just doing deals right and left talking to people. Everything’s word of mouth. There’s not a centralized place to really do deals and do them efficiently and cleanly and know that you’re, you’re protected.
Maggie: So I, feel like you need to have a really good real estate lawyer in your back pocket who specializes in this kind of thing? Because I mean, it’s just like we talk about, you know, having a very specific divorce lawyer, having a very specific business lawyer. I mean lawyers, once you get it, it’s like health, you know, like you don’t know all the body parts, you know, there’s some doctors who do it all, but otherwise it’s so specialized and this is like so niche.
Maggie: And you’ve gotta know those nuances.
Kayla: Absolutely. Yeah. And so I am building this platform to be that centralized market so people can find deals easily. But also that’s just the very beginning, right? Like you heard my story, I would never want someone to go through what I went through. And so that’s why I have this platform that refers people to good real estate attorneys.
Kayla: Educates on [00:19:00] like. Red flags, green flags, you know all the docs that you want to request. So I’m cleaning up the wild west.
Barb: Awesome. So before we dive into that, ’cause that’s a whole nother piece I wanted to really explore. Let’s talk about where you are today ’cause you had this terrible deal and you pulled yourself up and I’m sure you’ve made other deals since. So you dipped your toe back in the water, or maybe you dove right back in.
Barb: I don’t know. So how many deals successfully or any problems you’ve had since then, what’s your track rate?
Kayla: That’s a great question. I did up to, I wanna say around 20 deals in the last three years, either with my own personal group deals or capital raising for someone else’s deal. So personally I have three go bad, and the one that we’re talking about is still in litigation. And I actually put pause on it ’cause I was telling Maggie like it just was such an energetic drain and I have such higher things to focus my energy on that,
Kayla: I really consider [00:20:00] that experience as like my deposit into the universe and it will come back and I’m not worried. And other two deals, one did pay me back and it actually actually worked out really great because of all the late fees. And like, I absolutely wanna work with the borrower, but this guy was like, such a jerk.
Kayla: I was like, yeah, I’m gonna collect every single late fee.
Kayla: And he was the one that set those terms too, so that worked out fine. It
Kayla: was just incredibly delayed. And then the third one is actually in litigation as well. And these, the ones that are all in litigation, the two are from my very first set of deals.
Kayla: And so I’ve definitely tightened things up since then.
Maggie: And so if a woman is listening and someone you know, pitches her this great real estate opportunity, what are like two to three questions she should always ask before saying yes.
Kayla: Yeah. I would first say, do not just ask two to three questions, but the, our most, our most important things are I love to just straight up ask, how are you gonna protect my [00:21:00] money? That tells me very quickly how educated they are and how important it is to the borrower to protect their lender.
Maggie: What’s a good
Maggie: response to that?
Kayla: They need to know what documents are helpful and they need to know multiple ways to to do it ’cause there’s multiple ways to skin a cat. I hate that phrase, but,
Barb: Yeah.
Kayla: and so they have to have a couple of options on their mind. And to be more specific, there’s some foundational things. You need a promissory note, a lien position on the property which is called a deed of trust. You also want something called a personal guarantee, and that means that ‘hey, if everything goes wrong, you can go after me personally to recover the loss’. Because if you just loan to this person’s LLC, they can walk away and say, well that was my business and my business failed,
Kayla: and sorry, right. So personal guarantees lets you go after the individual. So those are some solid, like [00:22:00] non-negotiables. So I would expect them to say that the additional things is, you know, adding the lender to the insurance policy of the home getting title insurance, meaning that if the title company messed up and you know, there’s like,
Kayla: three liens in front of you that the title company isn’t responsible for that because, you know, you were lending on a deal where you thought you were next in line to get paid out. So these are some things that you would expect a borrower to be knowledgeable on. And if they aren’t, then that, for me is not necessarily a red flag,
Kayla: would it means they’re inexperienced and you just have to factor that into the deal and some people are okay with it, some are not. I probably wouldn’t, but, it’s not an immediate no. So that’s my starting point. The other questions to ask are, you know, show me the docs, show me your experience,
Kayla: show me this purchase agreement, the appraisal of the house. So I can really verify that what you’re saying is true. You want to not just like, if they [00:23:00] say, oh yeah, I’m gonna put 50 K into repairs and then we’re gonna sell it for 250 K, whatever. I want to see that contractor bid and I wanna make sure that contractor is
Kayla: very experienced and licensed and insured ’cause the, one of the ones that went bad it was actually the contractor that ruined everything. He was freaking psycho and he went and destroyed his work and stole equipment off the site and it stalled us for months. I mean, I could tell you stories all day.
Kayla: so I would just say, verify, verify, verify, verify, ask for the docs. And often lenders feel bad.’ ‘Oh, it’s so inconvenient. I know this is a lot of work’. It’s like, no, we are helpers. To do our job and to make sure everyone’s safe. These are just the steps. it is, what it is, what it is. If you want money, these are the steps that we have to take done.
Kayla: And so I think women hate inconveniencing people. Many of us are taught to stay small. Don’t take up a lost space. Don’t question this question that that’ll make them [00:24:00] feel bad. It’s like mm-hmm. And so it’s a really good exercise and like really coming, stepping into your power and remembering like, it’s my money.
Kayla: Like you said Maggie. Like, so if you don’t like this process that I’m taking to keep us safe, it’s okay. Go to another person, right? I would say those are the beginning things. And then lastly, I would just say like what’s your backup plan? What happens if everything goes wrong?
Kayla: There’s gotta be something well thought out. They cannot just say, oh no, this is clean and, and easy. Mm-hmm. That doesn’t do it.
Maggie: That’s a lot of people to talk to. I mean, between vetting the person who’s gonna do the work, the contractor getting on the insurance. I mean, all the things, it turns into a full web. It’s not just like, here’s some cash, let’s, let’s get started. I mean, not like I thought it was, but you know. When you see it online, it looks sparkly and easy and oh, 20% returns.
Maggie: Bada bing, badda, boom.
Barb: Yeah.
Kayla: Exactly. And that’s why I got into the trouble that I did because these gurus make it look way too easy. So simple. [00:25:00] Let’s go. No. However, these are the steps I would recommend anytime and all the time, and when you have relationships with good borrowers. I have two that I keep recycling my money with over and over again, and it’s wonderful.
Kayla: I will be honest, I don’t do that full due diligence anymore because they have proven themselves and they have a good track record. I am not saying that, like, Hey, follow me in that way. This is just my situation. I have a friend who did four deals with someone, and then the fifth one he defaulted and just totally ghosted her.
Kayla: So, you know, track record doesn’t protect you. It’s a fantastic strengthening quality of a deal. But in the end, your own due diligence is what saves you. Because these are so many pain points and so many friction points in this industry.
Kayla: This is why it started what I did, because I’m cleaning that up too. Like I want private money lenders to have software to just [00:26:00] look at a deal, underwrite it quickly, and be able to assess deals faster, which is what I’m doing as well.
Barb: let’s dig into all of that. Tell us what it is, how it’s used, why you created it, and how people can leverage it.
Kayla: Yeah, so my platform is called Money Match and we are in beta testing right now and it’s an investment accelerator. So people who are operators, as we talked about earlier, they can post a deal on the platform and it’s a marketplace where my platform will bring that deal to you if that’s in your lending box.
Kayla: So Lending Box means this is how much money I have, this is how long I want it out. These are the type of deals I’m interested in. Like if you only want to lend on apartment complexes because you want long-term equity, or if you just want to be in and out of a fix and flip in six months, that’s your prerogative.
Kayla: So you specify what you want, and then my platform will bring you deals that fit that criteria. And so it’s going to speed up the [00:27:00] process of finding deals ’cause right now. It is wild, wild west. You go around Facebook looking for the right deal and oh, that deal’s gone and that deal never worked out. And okay, this one’s available, but we gotta close in three days.
Kayla: It’s a mess. These are simple deals you can evaluate cleanly. And so what we’re doing right now is we’re we’re in the process of getting software to underwrite every deal that hits the platform so that lenders can more easily be protected and, and vet deals. But in the end, I always recommend your own human due diligence.
Kayla: What I’m providing is just less friction and more ease, and so I’m excited for people to try that out.
Maggie: I didn’t realize that people were like just finding these deals on Facebook, I mean, it just seems like you have to talk to someone who knows someone, but
Maggie: does it matter, like as like state to state? Like do you typically do ’em in your state more locally to you, or is it like, you know there in Manhattan I can do, sure.
Kayla: Right. I’ve learned all over the country. But I would [00:28:00] say that probably lending in your own town is very smart because you know where the property is, you can see it yourself. Because one of the deals that went bad, it was in Atlanta area and what the pictures showed was definitely a fix and flip.
Kayla: But it was only on realtor.com and then the real life pictures were a war zone. And I was like, oh my gosh. Like this guy did not raise enough money. He should have never, like, it was terrifying. I was like, oh, this is not gonna get covered with the money. Like me and a another partner came in with a hundred K, like 50 K from me, 50 K from the partner, and I was like, a hundred K is not even gonna,
Kayla: not even gonna touch this. And it, it went bad. And we found out too that it was in a historical neighborhood and in those neighborhoods, you have to get a permit to do anything right. And so like, we’re like, didn’t see that coming, didn’t know that that was gonna delay this project. And so, anyway, my point is had I started, [00:29:00] and again, this was one of my earliest deals, just mistake, mistake, mistake.
Kayla: And so, had I seen it and walked it, I would have been like, thank you, but no thank you. So I do think it is wise to start locally, but you don’t have to. You can be better than I was, and you can say, let’s do a video, walk through this property. I wanna see it. You can have multiple talks if you want.
Kayla: I review the appraisal closely, which I didn’t. So, anyway, you can lend everywhere is my, my answer.
Maggie: There is that technology of like, just FaceTime me through the house. You know, I’m not gonna fly in, just FaceTime me and just take advantage of the technology.
Barb: As long as they’re at the right house.
Kayla: Right. And I’ve actually had that where I was like, you’re filming the address right now. You know, like I wasn’t rude, but I was like, I want you to walk from the sidewalk and I want you to show me the address and you know, show me the street sign. So I have done that. Yeah.
Barb: I do have to ask this one question. How does a nurse practitioner pivot to creating a real estate app? Like what [00:30:00] was the, what was the bridge?
Kayla: Yeah, I actually talked to a financial planner five years ago, and he looked at all my finances and my goals and he said, you have a 7% chance of achieving your financial goals. And I was like. It’s higher than I thought. I was just like, it was such a great meeting because I was like, what I’m doing as a nurse practitioner is not working.
Kayla: And I think a lot of us realize, like we get these jobs thinking that you know, your nine to five is gonna work out and nurse practitioners make okay money, you know, average, average or higher. And if that wasn’t even working for me, then I had to do something else, right? Like, if plan a doesn’t work, then something’s gotta change.
Kayla: So I dove into real estate investing. I got all fired up, made these stupid mistakes. But in the grand scheme of things, it needed to happen. It needed to show me to gimme clarity on what’s totally wrong in the industry, [00:31:00] so I can clean that up. So I’m so grateful because I wouldn’t be here if everything went to plan. I would, I mean, I’d be making good money, but I feel like this platform is going to change and disrupt the industry in all the best ways.
Barb: I love it.
Maggie: It is so exciting. Yeah. Just to see, I mean, we’ve all gotta learn, right? Which is really why I wanted to bring you on, is like we tell all these stories, you know, but like, they’re not all glamorous and shiny from the get go, But you’ve learned so much and then you’ve changed for others. So really built that path, which is so exciting. So, you know, you rebuilt that as after a loss. You’re founder and now an investor. So I’ve gotta ask, what does financial freedom mean to you?
Kayla: Great question. I would say that it’s time freedom. Financial freedom means you have enough wealth to allow yourself to dictate however you wanna spend your time.
Barb: I’m just curious about when and where people can find your app
Kayla: Yeah, so we’re in beta testing [00:32:00] this month and you’ll find us on the Play store in the app store in about four to six weeks. So that would put us at about March 1st, and we can’t wait for people to use it. This is just the tip of the iceberg. We’re gonna keep, we have so many visions for it, so it can protect people and do what it’s intended.
Kayla: So I’m excited for people to join the journey.
Barb: I’m excited to watch your journey progress and learn from it. And, you know, March 1st is a great time because it’s Women’s History Month and it’s a time where we’re really celebrating those women who have stepped out for women. Financial literacy and empowerment in terms of money, and you’re one of them, Kayla, I mean, you’re, you’re a disruptor and you’re doing something fantastic in the realm that you’ve seen.
Barb: You’ve seen an issue and you’re doing something about it. And now look how easy you’re gonna make this for people. Sure. Still a risk, but much, much easier on your new platform. So congratulations and we can’t wait to watch it progress.
Kayla: Thank you. I [00:33:00] so appreciate that. Yeah, I just want and be a helper. So I’m very excited to do that. Thank you, Barb.
Maggie: Yeah. I encourage everyone go check out the app. You know, let’s keep this conversation going and I can’t wait to see where it grows. So thank you Kayla, for coming on today and sharing your story and just being vulnerable and sharing your new platform. We’re very excited for you.
Maggie: And yeah, we’ll talk to everyone again soon.
Outro: You’ve been listening to Women Money, the shit we don’t talk about. Now it’s time to take what you’ve learned and make bold moves towards financial independence. Stay in the know by joining our newsletter for exclusive tools, resources, and updates that keep you financially fearless. Head to PurseStrings. co and sign up today. Need a financial professional who gets it? Turn to PurseStrings Curated Directory, your go to resource for financial experts who know how to put you first. Love this episode? Leave us a review and help us empower even more women to own their financial power. Until next time, be financially fearless.
Smart Year-End Tax & Retirement Strategy with Carolyn Rowland
The end of the year is your moment to take control of your money, not scramble over taxes.
This week, we sat down with Carolyn Rowland, CFP®, EA, Partner and Financial Advisor at Resilient Wealth Planning. Carolyn combines tax smarts with long-term financial planning to help women feel calm, confident, and in charge of their money.
In this episode, Carolyn breaks down the simple year-end moves that can make a major difference for your future, without the stress or confusion. She shares how to make your taxes work for you, the key deadlines that matter before December 31, and why small, consistent steps are the true secret to wealth building. If you’re ready to finish 2025 strong, tune in to hear Carolyn’s strategy that sets you up for 2026 success.
01:02 Meet Carolyn Rowland
04:45 Pre-Tax vs Roth: Which is right for you?
09:05 Year-End Fixes That Boost Your Retirement Accounts
10:20 Quick Tax Tips Before December 31
17:40 Aligning Your Tax & Retirement Plans
23:30 Carolyn’s Definition of Financial Freedom
Have questions? Click this to check out our expert Q&A for tips from industry experts, tailored to help women address their most common financial concerns.
Subscribe to our newsletter to receive financial tips delivered weekly here!
(This transcript was generated using AI, so please excuse any misspellings or errors)
Barb:[00:00:00] Taxes, Maggie.
Maggie: Listeners, do not drop. I know you heard taxes. Don’t drop off right now.
Barb: Yeah, because taxes, it does sound kind of boring and dry, but you know what? There’s nothing so sure as death in taxes, as they say. So we gotta learn about step into those uncomfortable situations and learn about. Taxes doesn’t have to be scary, especially if you talk to someone like Carolyn who makes it so easy to understand and fun to talk about.
So we are talking about that shit we, you know, don’t talk about or sometimes don’t like to talk about, but we had to have an episode on taxes.
Maggie: Well, it’s becoming the year end and we wanna make sure all of our listeners are getting as rich as they can, so maximizing those retirement accounts, saving money on taxes, making long-term plans. I mean, if we’re gonna be wealthy, we gotta do some of the check boxes and we wanna make sure everybody else is prepared too.
We don’t wanna, just keep the information to ourselves.
Barb: That’s right. So taxes are something we have to [00:01:00] pay, we have to understand about it. We have to put on our thinking caps. It’s really not that difficult. And there’s some great tips in this podcast that show us what we can do now before the end of the year too, really save ourself on taxes. So it’s filled with, I think, great little things we can do here and there around, tax.
Maggie: Now, I do think taxes are difficult if you file them on your own as a business owner.
Barb: Well, I would never do that.
Maggie: no, no, no,
Barb: That’s why we hire the experts.
Maggie: And having some tips. Yeah. Having some experts, having some tips. Now I know what I need to do, and then I can continue just passing it off to the lady who’s gonna do my taxes.
Barb: That’s right. But there are some things we as individuals can do on our own behalf to help ourselves. And then once we do that, then you take all the paperwork and hand it to the expert who can put all the numbers together and voila, like a tax ferry. Then she sends ’em back to you, and then you either pay or you get money back depending on what the calculations show and you’re done.
Maggie:[00:02:00] Voila.
Barb: Let’s do it.
Gloria Steinem once said, we will never solve the feminization of power until we solve the masculinity of wealth. Barbara Provost and Maggie Nielsen are the team at purse strings that will help you navigate the ins and outs of financial independence so that you can be financially fearless. This is women in money, the shit we don’t talk about.
Maggie: Carolyn, we are thrilled to have you on the show today. And so before we dive in, can you introduce yourself to the listeners a little bit about who you are and what you do.
Carolyn: Yeah. Well, thank you so much for having me. So Carolyn Rowland, I am based out of brookfield, Wisconsin, which is right outside the Milwaukee area. I am a certified financial planner and an enrolled agent. So I basically marry financial planning, and tax planning, and tax preparation strategies. I [00:03:00] am now a partner in Resilient Wealth planning.
I am technically the founding partner of Resilient Wealth Planning, but my business partner Kim, and her husband, who’s also a partner, they live out in California and we merged earlier this year. So we are a wealth management firm, right? So we’re offering financial planning, investment management, and tax preparation services.
But my sweet spot has always been retirement planning and tax planning. I got my start in the industry 2013, 2014. I actually started working in my dad’s firm, helping him with taxes. So he was a financial advisor, tax repair needed the help. So he trained me on taxes. And I joke that I like grew up in this industry, but I love taxes.
I love tax law. I love how taxes relate to financial planning and your financial strategy and they are so connected. So that’s really where I am today. And I primarily serve women. Women in corporate roles, [00:04:00] female business owners. Yeah. ’cause there’s tax strategy on both sides.
There’s financial planning on both sides. So that’s me. Oh, I’m married. I have two young girls I like to think that I’m raising two fiercely independent women for our future, right. And yeah, I think so. My 3-year-old is definitely showing it.
Barb: Already.
Carolyn: Yeah. So that’s me.
Maggie: I’ve never heard anyone say that they love taxes. And I’m sure all our listeners, like, I’m trying to channel our listeners and be like, listen to this podcast, because yes, it’s about taxes, but it’s still gonna be exciting. We’re still gonna have fun. And yeah, there’s all this strategy that goes with it, which I always feel like
always as just like a normal person, not like a business owner. You just file your taxes and you’re like, this is the bad tax day, but Carolyn loves taxes. We’re gonna make this fun, apparently, their strategy, and we’re gonna get into that.
Carolyn: There is. And that’s why I love it. That is why I love it. ’cause there is strategy to it and it doesn’t have to be a [00:05:00] daunting thing. But we’ll get into it.
Barb: Well, I love that you love it.
Maggie: Yeah, and we’re gonna start with your story of what kind of drew you to helping women take control of their finances. I know you kind of worked with your dad and got a good taste of the financial life, but what drew you to then working with women?
Carolyn: Yeah. I’m kinda like taking a step back, I really liked this field because I saw the relationship aspect of what my dad was doing. And I was like, Ooh, I love that. And then kind of as I started to gain more experience, figure out who my kind of ideal client was. Like I really love the emotional and behavioral aspect of women and I think we kind of like
naturally attract our own self, I guess, in the type of clients that we wanna serve. So like, I’m a small business owner, so I naturally wanted to work with small business owners, but there’s just something about that relationship, like helping women. I really love empowering women to take control of their finances.
So really just like marrying that empowerment with the emotional and behavioral aspect of money. It just kind [00:06:00] of become like a natural progression.
Barb: Wow. That’s wonderful. So for the most part, women in business, do you also do couples, single women.
Carolyn: A lot of single women. Yeah. I mean, I’m not gonna sit here and be like, no, if you’re married don’t come, don’t go work with me. Like I have, I work with a handful of like single like, divorced, widowed women. Just ’cause I find that women love like they know when to outsource and like when to ask for help.
And I think we love having like partners in all aspects of our life. And so, yeah, handful of single, divorced, widowed women. A lot of like my accumulation clients. I’ve got a handful of single working women. Yeah, it’s a broad range.
Barb: Yeah. Good. And do you do taxes individually, or do you only do taxes for those people that you do financial planning for?
Carolyn: Oh, that’s a really great question and a question I get a lot too, because people are always looking to like refer out tax prep, but I try and focus primarily on tax preparation services for our financial planning or investment management clients. I [00:07:00] will take on the occasional, like ‘tax only’ I call it.
Like if they don’t utilize our only services, if I feel like they’re a good long-term fit because especially with like business tax returns or business clients, like there is a lot of. Ongoing planning that we do throughout the year and like that’s what I really wanna help people do is like, again, have that relationship and with planning and all that, like we’re not a transactional firm when it comes to taxes.
So that’s why we really like to primarily offer it for our existing like advisory clients.
Barb: Got it. Cool. And
So let’s dig into it. What’s the difference between pretax or Roth retirement and how do you know which is the right move for you?
Carolyn: That is the golden question. How do you know if it’s right for you, right? It really depends, but really great question because it’s a common one and it’s, it can be complex. Taxes are complex. I think retirement planning is complex, but pre-tax means you’re making a [00:08:00] contribution into a type of account and get a reduction in your income today, So you’re getting that deduction from income. Now, but down the line, when you take that money out of your retirement account, you’re gonna pay income tax on it. So all that money is gonna grow, grow, grow, but every dollar you pull out is gonna be subject to income tax. Now, on the flip side, a Roth contribution is you’re essentially paying the tax liability upfront.
So now, but then all those contributions and the growth are tax free down the line, assuming you’re making like checking all the boxes and making the right kind of distribution, right? Like no early distribution, things like that. So it’s just a difference in when you pay taxes now versus later.
And you said like, okay, how do you know if it’s the right move for you? And it really depends. It depends on what your current income is, your current tax situation, like what are your future goals, right? So I think when a lot of people think about taxes, they think about. Oh, I need to save money on taxes now.
But we really wanna make sure that’s aligning with your long-term financial goals. Because there might be someone [00:09:00] who loath paying taxes in retirement. And I’ve seen it enough too, where my clients will hit that required minimum distribution age and they have to pay, a lot in taxes and they don’t necessarily need the money.
Like everybody’s situation’s different. But if you can control that narrative now, that’s where like a Roth IRA is great. Specific examples are like, okay, it makes sense to contribute to a Roth if you’re maybe just starting out in your earning years, you’re in a lower tax bracket ’cause you’re gonna pay, you know, the income tax on your income at like say 10 or 12%. And then maybe down the line when you need to take those funds out, you’re in the 22% tax bracket, right? So from a number standpoint like that is where it makes sense. But at the end of the day, I really do like a blend of both.
I think there’s something to be said about having diversification among like the type of accounts you have. So that’s not just pre-tax. You think a lot of people will just kind of automatically do through their employer’s 401k, but again, having that Roth bucket, maybe even a taxable bucket. So long-winded answer for you.
Maggie: Learning about [00:10:00] like taxes and thinking about how you have to think about it over like many years was one of the wildest things I’ve learned, like doing all of purse strings is ’cause I never thought about like, well ‘what about my taxes in 30 years? Like I don’t think most people think about that’, and so it’s always just like, how do I pay the least amount today?
Which I get that we’re all trying to do that, but I’ve never realized that you really have to zoom out and look at it as like, you know, a 30 to 50 year picture of like when you’re in retirement or all these other moving pieces that you have going on, which I don’t know, I was still just like, wait, you have to really zoom out.
This is not just like a year to year, like pay a percentage. It was, yeah, it was a real learning curve for me.
Carolyn: Oh yeah. And then when you’re in your twenties or your thirties, you don’t wanna think about like your 60-year-old self, right? Like nobody’s thinking 30 years ahead. However, it’s like the decision you make today, it’s going to impact future you. So yeah, your future self will thank you. I promise.
That’s what I tell myself.
Maggie: so [00:11:00] are there like a common mistakes you see women make with retirement accounts that we could fix before year end?
Carolyn: Yeah. And they don’t have to be big. Like it can be simple things like if you are employed, your employer offers an employer sponsored plan, like making sure that if there’s a match, you’re contributing enough to qualify for that, right? ’cause that is free money. We don’t like leaving free money on the table.
And then it’s also contributing consistently. I think where I’ve seen a lot of success is those that are contributing consistently, like per paycheck, you know, monthly. That automatic investing, it doesn’t have to be a lot, but it really compounds over time and that’s something that you can easily fix now before year end.
And then another thing too, like, you know, speaking to my business owners is making sure that if you are self-employed you wanna make sure that you are also eligible to have a retirement plan in place. So some types of retirement plans need to be put in place before year end. So just kind of having that awareness and maybe it’s a set IRA or a solo 401k, like those [00:12:00] have to be established before December 31st.
But you have until your tax deadline to fund them. So again, it’s kind of like being mindful, being planful. And then my last little one too is like, okay. In the last quarter of the year, a lot of people tend to get bonuses, so making sure that with that bonus, maybe throw a little bit more into retirement, or maybe you need to set aside a little bit for taxes.
Barb: Okay. So year end tax planning sounds scary. Everyone hates it.
I know. You’re like drooling. You can’t wait. Right? So what quick wins can women tackle before the end of the year?
Carolyn: This is great because. And when we’re talking about tax planning, things that can really positively impact you, especially with this year, whether you love it or hate it, the one big beautiful bill act is gonna impact our taxes for 2025. So like everybody can benefit from making charitable [00:13:00] contributions, you wanna make sure that.
That’s completed before December 31st, right? We wanna make sure we’re doing that in this tax year. I really wanna make sure that if anybody has an FSA, that like you’re using those tax dollars because if you don’t use it, you lose it. But then on the flip side too, like you still have time to max out these contributions, whether it’s to your HSA, your traditional IRA Roth IRA.
And we kind of have a little bit of leeway. You know, we say year end, but really it’s kinda like, okay, tax year we tend to have some buffer where it’s like, okay, we have until April 15th, but I really like to make sure that we’re being mindful of planning and like doing it now versus like April 15th, right?
Because the time to plan and be proactive is now. So a couple other things I like to make sure people are doing also is reviewing their withholdings. So if you’ve traditionally owed, like, let’s look at your pay stub, let’s do kind of a projection and do you need to make any changes or did you get married this year because that’s gonna impact your taxes heading into 2026.
So now is a really great [00:14:00] time to review all of that and kind of make some tweaks before your end and then heading into the new year. And then one of my kind of like personal favorite things to do from like marrying the financial planning and the taxes is ‘tax loss harvesting’. So if you have non-retirement investment accounts, you may have the opportunity to harvest some losses in your portfolio, which will kind of offset your income up to about $3,000.
But then also kind of helps you with if okay, if you have some capital gains, it’ll offset that income as well. So some little more like nitty gritty, granular strategies there, but I think those are good. Like, okay. At least a few of those should resonate with your listeners.
Maggie: So let’s dive into a couple of those ’cause I think some of that is like foreign language. So like tax loss harvesting. Like does a layman person do that? Do you need like a professional help you with that? How all the details.
Carolyn: Okay, so professional can do it, should be doing it like that. To me, that’s one of those things where. If you’re hiring a professional [00:15:00] to manage your investments, to do your financial planning, like that’s kind of just a yearend tax planning strategy that we would normally do, right? So that’s something that for my clients, I’m looking for, right?
Like, you don’t have to ask me that question. Like, everything I do is through the lens of like tax planning, tax efficiency. So that’s something that’s like on my year end checklist for working with clients. If you’re managing your own investments, that’s something that somebody can do on their own.
No problem. It’s okay. Go into your brokerage account, and by brokerage I mean like non-retirement investment account. Are there any losses? So what that means is your basis is higher than the value of your stock. So there’s technically a loss in the portfolio. You can sell that.
Reinvest it. You gotta be careful, like wash sale rules. I’m trying not to give financial advice here, tread lightly. But you can kind of use those losses to benefit you from a tax standpoint, right? Like offset your income, offset gains if you wanna kind of diversify out of a highly concentrated position.
Maggie: Okay.
Is there a certain [00:16:00] amount people should be like, is there like, oh, up to $600 You get like a benefit or I know there’s usually like a price point or is, ’cause I know then when you do like itemized, does this go with the itemized at all or, ’cause some of us just do like the whole big write off, like whatever they give you the base.
I don’t know any of the lingo. I don’t know.
Carolyn: You’re doing a really great job.
Maggie: I send it to my girl and I’m like, ‘yo, can you’, and she just sends me back what I owe or get money back.
Carolyn: So traditionally to take a deduction, and I’m talking about the federal level, right? Like states, they’re all different. Traditionally, to be able to take a deduction from your charitable contributions, you have to qualify to itemize. Now, the standard deduction is so high that a lot of people don’t itemize anymore.
But with this one big, beautiful bill, if you take the standard deduction, there’s what’s called a ‘ above the line deduction’, so you don’t have to itemize in order to get this charitable contribution deduction. So let’s say it’s like $600 is the number that’s at the top of my mind right now.
We actually saw this during COVID, like they [00:17:00] allowed that above the line deduction, I think of $600. Yeah, so couple hundred. But I know what you’re talking about, Maggie. You’re like, it’s usually $500. Kind of like a freebie that like, okay, you don’t necessarily have to substantiate it, but don’t go above that or you do have to substantiate it to the IRS.
Maggie: And then the FSA, which is the flexible spending account. So that’s for like your doctors and your medical bills, correct?
Carolyn: Yeah. Copays.
Maggie: Let’s say like you’re not going to the doctor, I think you can go on like Amazon and buy things from that account, right. So it’s like, buy some shampoo, buy some of your Tylenol.
Carolyn: Buy tampons. That’s like, I’m like buying women’s healthcare, target and Amazon. I’m noticing like you go and make a purchase and it shows you like, oh, this is FSA HSA eligible. I’m like, absolutely. Yeah, go stock up on Band-Aids, like you said, Tylenol. Go to Costco.
Maggie: Everyone’s getting personal care items in their stocking ’cause that’s where all the money is
in my account.
Barb: Bandaids for everybody.
Carolyn: I love it.
Maggie: Yo, everyone needs to refill their ca, you know, [00:18:00] living on my own. I always go to like my medicine cabinet and I’m always like, oh yeah, I got that. And I open it and like it’s not there. And oh yeah, I have that. I open it. I’m like, there’s no Benadryl. I was like, oh yeah, I gotta restock.
Barb: Because your mom’s not filling it up anymore.
Maggie: Yeah, exactly. So, maybe that’s my time to fill it up.
Carolyn: I do love the idea of that being a stalking stuffer.
Maggie: It’s what a girl needs
Carolyn: You’re clever.
Maggie: Okay, so we have the charitable planning, we have the flexible savings account, we’ve got the tax loss harvesting. And I know you mentioned one more, I didn’t write it down.
Carolyn: Reviewing withholdings.
Maggie: Reviewing withholdings. And that’s important too. And so Carolyn, you had a baby this year.
Carolyn: I did.
Maggie: And so do you add like another person on your like withholdings?
Carolyn: Yeah. So I’m self-employed so like my situation’s just like wildly different. But it’s something that you can definitely take in consideration. So I would say like the majority of people whether if you’re employed, you get a W2, like that is something that you can account for on your withholdings.
So claiming an additional dependent, ’cause you [00:19:00] should be able to bill for the child tax credit I say should like lightly, right? There’s income thresholds. I mean, personally for me, like that is something that I took into account. Like my tax liability should be at least $2,000 less this year because I had a baby.
And then my medical bills should hopefully be deductible, right. So you bet i’ve been thinking about that.
Barb: I bet.
Maggie: We’re getting this baby out and saving some money.
Carolyn: My new tax deduction.
Maggie: And so, how can you align your tax strategy with your retirement goals to make a real difference for women’s long-term confidence?
Carolyn: Yeah, I’ve been somewhat alluding to it already, right. Where we can see that tax planning, tax strategy really ties into retirement planning. But I think the biggest thing is making sure that taxes don’t necessarily erode your retirement savings.
Like we’re talking about making pre-tax contributions to help save on taxes, but you know, down the line when you have to pay the income tax on those distributions, like we don’t wanna lose gains and your [00:20:00] income towards taxes. So it’s kind of like, okay, that’s where that 30 year planning or looking ahead, comes into play where it’s like, how can I be as tax efficient as possible?
You know, that’s not just like where you’re putting your money, but also like the types of investments that you have. So it’s really that, it’s making sure that the tax strategy and the financial planning align so that we can maximize your wealth. And like to me, I think maximizing wealth is probably one of the most empowering things.
That’s what drives me. And I think it’s just really cool to see that number grow and to get that much closer to financial freedom.
Barb: For sure. Yeah. And on that, if listeners could do just like one or two things before year end to boost their retirement, what would you tell them to prioritize?
Carolyn: Okay. It’s gotta be the ongoing contributions because that is the biggest impact that over the long run, like if financial independence is what you wanna achieve. Like just start somewhere. So I would say like, go to your retirement [00:21:00] savings after this podcast, whether it’s your 401k, increase it by 1%, or if you’re contributing to a traditional IRA or a Roth IRA, set up that monthly contribution, even if it’s just $25, $50,
you know, if you wanna get to the maximum each year, it’s I think somewhere like 500 a month you’d have to stash aside. So whatever that is, right. Just kind of set it up, automate it, let it ride. And then we talked about it before too, like are you contributing enough to get that match?
And then being mindful, like retirement contribution deadlines. So there’s a lot we could do, but I think just setting yourself up for success. So those ongoing contributions and then deadlines.
Maggie: So it’s your Roth that you could put, I know it’s changing every year, but like 7,500 in a year, right.
Carolyn: Yeah, and it’s your Roth and your traditional, so it’s kinda like either or you pick one. So that’s the IRA contribution limit across the board. And then you could put 7,500 in it as an [00:22:00] individual to either or, right. Traditional or Roth. And then there’s the catch-up contribution of a thousand for ages, like 50 up.
Maggie: 7,500 for me and then what my company matches is just an addition or is it both of us together?
Carolyn: So the traditional IRA in Roth IRA contribution is separate from like your 401k contribution limits. So 401k contribution limits are, oh, your. I don’t know off the top of my head.
Maggie: Aren’t they like much higher though?
Carolyn: They’re a lot higher, like at least double like 20,000, 20,500, and then their catch-up contribution’s a lot higher.
So this is where like, especially for my small business owners who. know, Maybe make a significant amount, but a traditional IRA, the limit’s just too low. Like that’s where we wanna start exploring a sep IRA or a solo 401k, just so we can get those higher contribution limits. ‘Cause it is significant when you can get into solo 401k. Yeah, that’s a good question, Maggie.
Maggie: Yeah, there’s just a lot of moving parts. I mean, there’s so many like [00:23:00] different accounts and like different limits and they change every year and so it’s always like you’ve really gotta get it straight. You’re doing pre-tax, post-tax. I mean, I could use a little table, a little chart.
Barb: There’s a lot of charts out there.
Maggie: I’m sure I could just Google it.
Barb: I always like to be organized and make sure I have all my tax documents ready to go, for my tax person. I guess for the most part to be organized, you just have to know what accounts you have so you know what to expect. That’s coming to you in the mail or email in terms of the different documents that you need to use to prepare for your taxes or send in with your taxes or something like that, right?
There’s really nothing else you can do beforehand except know what to expect and make sure you have a list of the accounts that you have and know what should be forthcoming, right.
Carolyn: Absolutely. And I love that you start that early, I appreciate that. So using previous year’s tax return is always helpful. Like look and see like, what did you have last year? That’s kind of a [00:24:00] good starting point. We personally provide like tax organizers for our clients.
So it’s probing questions like, okay, what were your sources of income? If you have a W2, go find it. If you have bank interest, you know, look for a 1099-INT go, go grab that investments. Like, look for that. So yeah, the sooner you can start, the better it is. I mean you, it’s funny ’cause like it technically starts like e-filing starts at end of January typically, and we go until April 15th.
And, everyone’s different whether you’re like, ‘Hey, let’s just get it done right away and be done with it’. Or it’s like, let’s wait until that deadline
Barb: I’m like waiting at the door for my tax documents from the mail so I can get it in.
Maggie: And is it still kind of like the rule of thumb to hold on to all that information for like seven years?
Carolyn: Yeah, so technically the IRS can come after you like without a statute of limitations if you have a fraudulent tax return. But chances, like if you’re doing things right, I like to say like seven years is good. Rule of thumb. Yeah. You don’t need to hold onto a tax return for [00:25:00] 25 years. I give you permission to throw it away.
Maggie: I know some of our listeners need to hear that, where I’m just like, I don’t even know if I could find mine from four years ago, so God bless.
Carolyn: Yeah, I think I have a digital copy somewhere.
Maggie: We’d cross that bridge when we get there.
Barb: I know exactly where mine are.
Maggie: Of course you do.
Carolyn: Oh, I love it. Of course. You do.
Maggie: No, but this has been good. I think it’s a lot of good tips to kind of end up the year to max out those retirement savings and to help ’em be financially fearless.
And so, Carolyn, since you’re on the podcast, you get the question everybody gets, what is your definition of financial freedom?
Carolyn: Financial freedom to me and financial fearlessness is that freedom to have choices and to make decisions with confidence, with control, with empowerment, right. And. Like that to me is financial freedom. And also aligning that with like your core values so you can live the life that is the most [00:26:00] meaningful to you.
Like, it’s not about a specific number of wealth. It’s more about the meaning of like, not the meaning of life, but the life that is the most meaningful to you, right. And that’s different for everybody.
Maggie: I love it.
Carolyn: Yeah.
Maggie: Well, thank you for coming on and sharing your expertise. For those who don’t know, Carolyn’s also one of our purse strings approved professionals. So we’re so excited to have her in our network and I encourage you to reach out to her if you need any help. Financial planning or tax planning or both ’cause clearly she knows what she’s doing.
Carolyn: I’m honored. Thank you. I appreciate you having me.
Maggie: Of course. And so until then, get tax planning and be financially fearless.
Outro: You’ve been listening to Women Money, the shit we don’t talk about. Now it’s time to take what you’ve learned and make bold moves towards financial independence. Stay in the know by joining our newsletter for exclusive tools, resources, and updates that keep you financially fearless. Head to PurseStrings. co and sign up today. Need a financial professional who [00:27:00] gets it? Turn to PurseStrings Curated Directory, your go to resource for financial experts who know how to put you first. Love this episode? Leave us a review and help us empower even more women to own their financial power. Until next time, be financially fearless.
YouTube