How to Protect Your Money in a High-Conflict Divorce with Paulette Rigo
Nobody walks down the aisle with a divorce budget. But when a marriage ends, it can become the most expensive financial decision of your life. The women who come out the other side strongest are the ones who prepared before anyone said the word out loud. Let’s talk about the money side of a high-conflict divorce and what preparing for this decision should look like.
In this episode, we havePaulette Rigo, CEO ofBetter Divorce Academy, private ADR mediator, certified high conflict divorce coach, sought after speaker, host ofThe Better Divorce Podcast, and author of the number one best selling Better Divorce Blueprint. Paulette lived through an eight and a half year fully litigated divorce, including a twelve day trial and four more years of appeals, and turned it into a mission to help couples avoid court and help women protect themselves when they can’t. We talk about what high conflict really means, what divorce actually costs, the four money categories you need to know cold, and what financial freedom looks like after it all.
What is a high conflict divorce? Paulette explains that high conflict comes down to a lack of compliance and a lack of sharing. She calls it the three E’s: lack of empathy, entitlement, and exploitation. When one or both spouses refuse to share information, ignore deadlines, or want everything for themselves, the process gets forced through the courts step by step, and it gets long and expensive.
How much does a divorce really cost? More than most people realize. Paulette shares that billable hours are charged in six to eight minute increments, the national average attorney rate is about $500 an hour, and an average of 10 billable hours a month per side means about $5,000 a month for each spouse. A litigated divorce typically takes 18 to 24 months. Private mediation can save couples an average of $40,000 to $70,000 in unnecessary legal fees.
How can women protect themselves financially in a high conflict divorce? Work with an expert, and know your numbers. Paulette says there are four categories in divorce: income, assets, budget, and debt. If you can fill out all four completely, with the logins, passwords, and balances, you avoid paying attorneys to fight over discovery. She also recommends documenting everything, because evidence like texts, emails, and call logs matters.
How do you prepare for divorce before telling your spouse? Start early and get organized. Paulette shares that 73% of divorces are initiated by women, and women spend about two years contemplating divorce before acting. She uses that time to help women get researched, organized, and prepared, interview attorneys, and build a plan, so they make decisions from a calm place instead of fear.
What can you do when your spouse refuses to cooperate? Understand the process and accept who they are. Paulette walks through the five methods of divorce and the four things courts actually care about: custody, child support, division of assets and debt, and spousal support. She teaches clients how to communicate with a high conflict person so they don’t add fuel to the fire, and how to prepare for the storm before it hits.
How do you protect yourself in a second marriage? Full transparency. Paulette and her husband share access to their phones and financials, talk openly about premarital, non-marital, and marital assets, and worked through books together before marrying. Her advice: have the hard talks.
We would love to hear what you thought of this episode, any questions it sparked, what resonated most, or any topics you would love us to cover next. Click here to send us a message!
Join us for the next Money Talks, “The Financial Survival Guide to Divorce: What to Do, What to Protect, and When to Call Who”Click here to register for FREE and bring your questions!
Have questions? Click this to check out our expert Q&A for tips from industry experts, tailored to help women address their most common financial concerns.
Subscribe to our newsletter to receive financial tips delivered weekly here!
Barbara Provost, EdD and Maggie Nielsen, MBA are the co-founders of Purse Strings, a national platform helping women make confident financial decisions by connecting them with vetted financial professionals who truly understand women’s lives and money needs. Purse Strings connects women across the U.S. with vetted financial professionals who specialize in supporting women through divorce, money transitions, and financial independence.
Full Episode Transcript
(This transcript was generated using AI, so please excuse any misspellings or errors)
[00:00:00] Today’s conversation is about high-conflict divorce, and I just think this is so interesting because, it’s either, like, hiding assets, stalling, freezing accounts, or kind of like running up those legal fees. And it’s typically, like, with this person who knows all your ins and outs. And so, it reminds me of, like, my brother when I was a kid, and, like, he knew exactly what it would take to piss me off.
They knew exactly what to do to get under your skin. And this partner that you’ve been with for a while typically knows [00:00:30] those things as well. And so the way that they can stall and rack up these bills and all these things, it’s so frustrating. And I think this is so important why we have this conversation and have all these tools and resources before you go into the process or during the process.
So it’s not just using your attorney and ra-ra-racking up legal fees, but having enough mental stability of your own and knowing your questions and what you need. So when this person tries to get under your skin[00:01:00] you can let that roll off, is much easier said than done. But ideally, you know what I mean?
Because it is, you want to get out of there. But we also talk a lot about how we don’t want to the process and make a bigger financial mistake, right? So it’s kind of weighing of, if I stick in this process, what can I get from it, that would be equal and fair versus they’re draining all the accounts on these legal fees.
How do I get out of this at the cheapest rate as well and this happy middle ground? So this is a really interesting conversation no matter where [00:01:30] you are at in the divorce process because Paulette gives so many great tips on what you need to gather, how to kind of keep that bill down, how to, keep yourself stable when this other person is trying to come at you and piss you off, really, to say the least.
So I hope you’re able to dive into this episode, and please know that we have a ton of Purstrings approved professionals willing and ready to help you through this process if that’s the choice that you’re gonna take. And excited to hear your [00:02:00] thoughts on the other side. So let’s dive in.
[00:02:30]
Maggie: Paulette, we are so excited to have you on Women & Money: The Sh*t We Don’t Talk About. Before we dive into today’s conversation, can you share a little bit about who you are and what you do?
Paulette: Absolutely. Well, hello everyone, and thank you again for the gracious invitation, Maggie. I always am honored when people reach out to me to learn more about myself and the work I do. So thank you for that. Again, my name is Paulette [00:03:00] Rigo. Originally from Boston. I lived in Belize. I now live in Atlanta, but I work nationally and internationally.
Paulette: I’m a credentialed private family mediator specializing in alternative dispute resolution, and I’m also a high conflict certified divorce coach. I’ve also been a consultant in HR consulting for companies who are training HR professionals in divorce sensitivity, but that’s a whole nother conversation.
Paulette: So I founded Better Divorce Academy as a brand about nine years ago. And I [00:03:30] host the Better Divorce podcast, and I also authored number one best-selling book, workbook, audio book, and course, Better Divorce Blueprint. And the reason I did that is because I personally went through an eight and a half year fully litigated divorce case that included a twelve-day trial.
Paulette: The twelve-day trial took place over t- nine months, and of course, there were two years of preparation to even get to the point of going to trial. And then once the decision came back, which the judge took another nine months to deliberate, which [00:04:00] is rare. Deep breath, everyone. It was appealed by my ex-husband and his counsel on seventeen counts, and it went an additional four years in supreme appellate court in the state that I resided, in Massachusetts.
Paulette: So during that ten-ish year, you know, decade-ish period of time, because of the other careers that I’ve had and happy to tell you about those too, I know thousands of women. I was a ballet teacher. I [00:04:30] choreographed. I ran the children’s division of Ford Models. I was a yoga teacher trainer, a birth doula, a lactation consultant.
Paulette: So w- we’re talking women, right? Ballet, yoga, you know, babies. And the story got out and I started to get letters and phone calls, and social media was kind of in its little bit of an infancy, you know, eighteen, twenty years ago. And I was getting messages and my phone rang even. And the story would always start with “Are you [00:05:00] okay?”
Paulette: ” ” How come this is taking so long?” Et cetera, et cetera. But it would always end up with, “Can you help me?” And I at first would say, “No, I can’t. I can barely help myself.” But it kept happening, Maggie, over and over again. So I asked my attorney “What should I do? I mean, should I go to law school or something?”
Paulette: And he kinda chuckled and … His name is Martin Kane and when you’re from Boston and your name’s Martin, it’s Marty or Marty as we say. So he laughed and [00:05:30] he said, “You owe it to give back. You have been a incredible client and asset to this firm.” And you … This wasn’t a direct quote, but the message of you think like a judge, like logically, and you act like a lawyer, like procedurally.
Paulette: Like I learned a lot about the procedural part of it. Like you do A, then you do B, then you do C. I had no idea. I was so green when my attorney said “We have an affidavit.” I said, “Wait, who’s David?” So that’s how green I was. And then you [00:06:00] feel like a therapist. So, I … A little tear rolled down my cheek and I took it seriously.
Paulette: And I did a lot of research interning, mentoring, credentialing, certification, you name it, and I focused on mediation and high-conflict divorce coaching. So, that’s what I do. I help couples when I wear the first hat avoid court because people don’t realize that litigation is a lawsuit. You know, once you’re a plaintiff and a [00:06:30] defendant or a, you know, petitioner and a respondent or defendant or whatever state you live in there’s a different term, but it’s all the same thing.
Paulette: You’re basically suing your partner. You’re embroiled in a lawsuit and you lose control out of your life. And you’re now handing over your life to a third party that doesn’t know you from beans and makes their decision. You know, some with a lot of compassion, some kinda matter-of-fact. And that’s not always the experience people want.
Paulette: Number two, it’s public which is maybe [00:07:00] not so great for most people would like to keep their private life private, and I can save them an average of 40 to $70,000 in unnecessary legal fees whether they’re, you know, putting down a retainer or they’re going all the way to trial. I know that’s a very wide range of money.
Paulette: But it’s a significant savings, hence the things people don’t talk about with money, right? And you get a much more successful outcome, and it’s done with grace and dignity and wisdom and not [00:07:30] stress and, you know, fine, throw in the towel, whatever, I’ll sign it mindset. So that’s where I realized that divorce is a $50 billion industry.
Paulette: If you ever watch the documentary Divorce Corp, it … Like Corporation, it will blow your mind. You know, again, it’s a documentary, and it’s of course slanted to their point of view, but it … Facts are facts. It’s expensive. And it kind of, irritated me. Dare I say pissed me off. Wait you’re taking advantage of people at their most vulnerable [00:08:00] time, destroying perhaps a family and any chance of a relationship moving forward because of an industry, and the divorce industrial complex kinda irritated me.
Paulette: And I said, “I’m gonna be part of the solution and not part of the problem.” So hence I founded Better Divorce Academy and my calendar is full, and man, is it gratifying to be able to see the transformation in families’ lives when … Not that I’m pro-divorce, Maggie. Don’t get me wrong. Like, I don’t [00:08:30] run around handing out my business cards like, “You two look miserable.”
Paulette: Although there have been a few times my husband has said, ” They need your card.” I’m remarried. So, that’s my focus, and it’s my passion, and I’m deeply enthusiastic about it, and it means the world to me to help couples and individuals avoid that. Now, not everyone can do that. 97% of cases do not go to trial.
Paulette: 3% do. So the 3% that do, I wear my second hat as a high-conflict certified divorce [00:09:00] coach, and I work with one party step by, dare I say, step. I hold their hand, lock arms with them, and get divorced with them every step of the way so they feel educated, supported, guided, researched resourced, and understand other options before they make decisions they
Paulette: Regret is a terrible thing. Divorce is not the time to have regrets. You wanna make sure you go through it wisely, systematically, and feel supported every step of the way
Maggie: Wow. We have a lot to dive into here, [00:09:30] and so I’m excited for this conversation. That was a lot of great information. And so just to kind of, you know, set the tone for this podcast, can you tell us what a high-conflict divorce actually means? Because I think a lot of women maybe have experienced it, and they don’t even know it
Paulette: Very good question. It has to do simplistically with a lack of compliance or a lack of sharing. You can call that what you want. Transparency, authenticity, secrecy, whatever label you want to give it. But, [00:10:00] you know, in divorce regardless of what state you live in, and even, you know, other regions or countries like Canada or, you know, Europe it’s a process.
Paulette: You don’t really have a choice. One person is filing, if it’s contested or, you know, versus uncontested, and of course that’s maybe another conversation. But that means that one person has initiated the divorce. Because I’m a private mediator, I work with a lot of couples that haven’t initiated divorce, and they want to make a plan and a memorandum of agreement that works for [00:10:30] them privately before they go into that.
Paulette: But if you’re going down that road of the 3%, shall I say, then one party is naturally the plaintiff or the filer, the complaint, the petition, and they’re now writing what they want, right? Their laundry list of things they think they want. And then the other party has been assigned or, you know, receives this, whether it be digitally or ding-dong, you know, somebody serves them that, whe- it’s more and more [00:11:00] now it’s digitally and not always, you know, somebody, a sheriff coming to your door.
Paulette: Don’t panic, everyone. But sometimes that still happens, so. And then now you’ve got 30 days to respond. So to answer your question, they don’t respond. They ignore it they let the 30 days lapse, or they respond very vaguely, you know? Yeah. Or the person that has filed wants everything. They want all the money, all the kids, all the this, all the that.
Paulette: «I want this, that, and the other thing, [00:11:30] and I want you to go away, rot in hell, and disappear.» That’s not a quote, but that’s the mindset, right? So if A says, ” I want everything,” and you get nothing, that would be high conflict. If the other person says, “Well, let’s be fair, and let’s be great,” and the other person goes, you know, “See you in court, buddy,” y- it’s not always A or B.
Paulette: It could… And it can be both, Maggie. Both people could be entitled, have a lack of empathy, entitlement, and exploitation. That’s what I call the three E’s, which makes it high conflict. If your [00:12:00] spouse has a total lack of empathy- me. They don’t really care about the family or the kids or what’s fair or equitable, and they just don’t wanna share or communicate.
Paulette: That’s number one. Number two is entitlement. I want what I want. It doesn’t really matter why, and you know what? I just want it ’cause I want it attitude. That’s high conflict. And number three, they exploit or use the system, people, places things, money to benefit them as in an individual, not as a whole.
Paulette: So [00:12:30] if you have a spouse or you, yourself, feel that sense of entitlement, exploitation, and lack of empathy, or both parties do, watch out. It’s gonna be a battle. So I hope I answered your question, you know, but it’s that really lack of like, “The rules don’t apply to me. I’m not gonna follow them.” There’s no compliance and you basically have to force them to process and go through the judicial step-by-step requirements because they refuse to do it [00:13:00] voluntarily
Maggie: Yeah, I could see why that would be high conflict, and it’s always a little laughable to me ’cause it’s not like you’re gonna ever get away with not showing the finances or get away with all of these things. Like, it’s just gonna be a long, drawn-out process, but, like, you’re not gonna go above the courts and have it your way just because you’re you.
Maggie: You know what I mean? It’s like you’re not that special. Like, it’s gonna happen. You’re gonna have to give up the papers or, you know, share the information, or somebody more logical is, you know, not gonna [00:13:30] say you get everything and you get nothing. I mean, that’d be a very rare case.
Paulette: Yes, but there’s reasons why they do it, my dear. You know, they do it to break you down.
Paulette: They do it to irritate you. They do it to waste money. They do it to drag it out so that you break, and you give in, and you throw in the towel. And they do it to get revenge, and to harm you, and to hurt you because they’re pissed off that you’re done with the marriage, and they want a trophy [00:14:00] to put on their bookshelf and wear a little blue ribbon that says, “I won.”
Paulette: They don’t get a trophy, and they don’t get a blue ribbon. And yes, eventually the rubber does meet the road, and the domestic relations financial affidavit that was originally void, empty, and written N/A, I don’t know any of this information, don’t know it, will be filled out because you have to subpoena the documents, but that takes time and money, and they know that, and their attorney loves that because that’s how they [00:14:30] make a lot of money,
Paulette: so built into that system
Maggie: And so for your divorce, eight and a half years of litigation, I mean, that is, I, I, and I didn’t know you could do a two-week court case over nine months. I mean, I am already learning the different ways things are set up.
Paulette: Well, it was 12 days that was over nine months. So like there were two days in September, and then three days in October, and then, well, of course they took Thanksgiving off, and then maybe a day in December. I don’t remember the exact schedule, but it took place over nine months. [00:15:00] Yeah
Maggie: and so what did this cost you financially? And like what
Maggie: would this have cost you if you kinda knew then what you know now?
Paulette: Yeah. I don’t really remember the exact number, ’cause it was over 18 years ago now. But it was in the hundreds of thousands of dollars which kind of blew my mind, you know. I didn’t know that billable hours were really six to eight-minute increments of billable minutes. So [00:15:30] every email is about, you know, depending on whether your attorney is $200 an hour or $800 an hour, the national average now is about 500.
Paulette: You might be able to find someone less. You probably … No, you can find someone more. But the … You know, for easy math, you know, the average billable hours per month per side is about 10. Some, some months you might only get a two-hour bill. Some months you might get [00:16:00] 30. But an average is about 10. So if your attorney has a billable, you know, hourly rate of 500, that’s $5,000 a month for A and $5,000 a month for B, and in that first month nothing’s happened other than the petition has been written and is served to the opposing side.
Paulette: So now the other side has to retain an attorney too, and they may get an attorney that’s less or more but you know, we don’t know. Now, it’s very [00:16:30] common for A to want B to pay the legal fees and B to pay A the legal fees. Doesn’t happen so often. You usually are responsible for your own legal fees.
Paulette: Now, it may all be marital money. Could be. Might be premarital, might be non-marital, might be marital, but it’s still money that is spent and nothing has happened. So now you look at how long an average divorce takes, which is about 18 to 24 months [00:17:00] If you’re litigating, not mediating privately, but, you know…
Paulette: And mediation is a part of the litigation process, right? Because there are three forms of mediation, and we can talk about that more if you want. But so a mediation will be a part of that litigated process, which now takes more time, and both parties now have to pay their attorneys to sit in during mediation, which typically doesn’t go so well because now you have two litigators in the [00:17:30] room that don’t want it to come to a resolution, depending on the attorney.
Paulette: Don’t hate me, attorneys but you know what I’m saying. So, it is now kind of setting yourself up for failure, but yet not only do both parties have to pay the mediator, they both have to pay the litigators to be present to, dare I say, oversee, counsel, or babysit the mediation, and it’s very expensive.
Paulette: So it just, it’s like tick. There’s just like this running, you know, like the… What’s [00:18:00] that? The national debt that’s, like, $48 trillion now. We should all have one in divorce ’cause you’d be like, ” Oh my God tick. Oh, an email, $175. Tick tick.” So what happens is people make mistakes using their attorney as a therapist, as a financial planner, as a tax expert, as a mental health practitioner, as a realtor, as a a, a counselor, right?
Paulette: And yes, they are counselors at law, and you use them for [00:18:30] counseling you for the law. And you can use them for mental health if you’d like, but they’re very expensive
Maggie: We could get you a cheaper option though, and a more
Maggie: qualified one in that area
Paulette: then the other mistake they make is they use their mental health practitioner or other spokes of the wheels of benefi- beneficial professionals they might need for legal advice, which…
Paulette: and they don’t mean to do it, but they’re like, “Well, what do you think? Should I keep the house? It… Sh- I should get the house, right?” And, you know, of course, the therapist is gonna be like, ” Well, how do [00:19:00] you feel about the house? Do you want to keep the house? Like, tell me about, you know, your feelings about, your attachment to the house.”
Paulette: And they’re just, like, sitting there going Yeah. And of course, the, so the ticker tape would be helpful. So it’s incredibly hon- you know, mind-blowing. You know, the honest answer is I can’t reduce it to one number. There were legal fees, but there were also years of my life in preparing, responding, worrying, making decisions under stress, and there’s a [00:19:30] financial cost to all of that, right?
Paulette: The toll it takes on your children, your health, your ability to earn and plan for your future. I wish I had known that it was an expensive, extensive fight. I didn’t know. And that a good outcome is not necessarily the same thing as how much money you spend. Don’t think that if you have a, an attorney that’s $800 an hour, they’re gonna be worse than a $300 an hour attorney if you’re litigating, right?
Paulette: So [00:20:00] there’s always that cost, and it doesn’t just boil down to one number. It’s there is this issue that truly matters at every stage where you have to ask yourself, ” What is this fight likely to cost, and what could it realistically gain?” It’s a little bit of what I call your price of exit, you know, which is a little bit more of a divorce mindset than your return on your investment
Paulette: In business, we say, “What’s your ROI,” you know? [00:20:30] And in divorce, I say, “What’s your price of exit?” Because no party gets 100% of anything. We don’t get 100% of the children. By the way, they’re their own human beings and eventually grow up and become their own entities, thank goodness, right? We don’t want the children living in the basement till they’re 40 playing video games.
Paulette: We want them to be self-actualized, you know, functioning me- productive members of society. So these parents that are like mine, the children is mine,” you know? And I’m like, temporarily they’re [00:21:00] in your care, but we don’t own children, you know? So it can be a cost that isn’t just the checkbook
Maggie: And it’s an interesting, like, way because we see a lot of women who don’t wanna pay anymore, they just wanna be done, and all these things, which can cost you in its own way, right? Like, you could be giving up these different financial assets that would’ve been worth it more to fight it, you know, ’cause you can’t make
Maggie: that up. But there is that cost where, like, we can’t keep going back and forth on this. It’s not worth it financially at [00:21:30] the end of the day. It’s not worth it emotionally at the end of the day. So for these, like, high-conflict divorce you know, finances are often used as, like, a weapon. So how can women kind of protect themselves when the other person is deliberately trying to drain them?
Maggie: I mean, what can you do that, kind of stay together yourself?
Paulette: Well, there’s many things you could do. Number one, work with an expert that knows what the heck they’re doing, that’s been there and done that. And it doesn’t have to be me. Obviously, I [00:22:00] would be honored to support anyone. And anyone listening feel free to call me. I’m happy to give you a, you know, a, a basis assessment, I would call it.
Paulette: If you want consultation that, you know, that takes hours, but I am… I make myself readily available. So work with an expert not just in the overall entire 30,000-foot view, shall we say, but you have to look at the compartmentalization of your case, of your situation. If you’ve been married two [00:22:30] years, and you have no children, and you should have maybe annulled it or not gotten married in the first place, and you’re renting an apartment, and you guys are fighting over a couch and a bicycle and a toothbrush, okay, that’s a very different conversation than if you’ve been married 30, 40 years, and you have multiple businesses together.
Paulette: By now your children are probably adults, but maybe you have grandchildren, or it’s a second, third, or fourth marriage, and you now have half-children and stepchildren, and now you have premarital assets, non-marital assets, and [00:23:00] marital assets, and it’s a very complex layered case. So I’m giving you the two extremes.
Paulette: Maggie, most people fall between those, you know, continuants,
Paulette: right?
Maggie: It’s all the magic of the bell curve
Paulette: Yeah, you have to look at your situation with the demographics first. How long have we been married? Under 10 years, you know, it’s considered short term-ish, right? If it’s nine and three-quarters, okay, we’ll give you the benefit of the doubt.
Paulette: But if you’ve been married two, three years. 10 to 20 is kind of a [00:23:30] mid, maybe 25-ish. But 20 is usually that tipping point of when a long-term marriage kicks in. why? Because usually the kids are out of the house, or you’ve got one stuck in high school kind of thing. You know, we’re like, ” We got a few more years,” or staying together for the children, which I think is an epidemic.
Paulette: I see it every day. But if you’re in a long-term marriage and it’s going to be more complex. So do your demographics with are there children? Do you have business entities together? And the next [00:24:00] question is, how aware are you and your spouse of all of your marital, premarital, and non-marital assets and debt?
Paulette: There are four categories in divorce: income, assets, budget, and debt. You’ve got to be able to fill out all four categories completely, or you’re going to spend a lot of money on discovery, which is basically attorney A and attorney B bickering with each other saying, “Give me this, give me that.” And they [00:24:30] usually don’t quickly because their client says, “I’m not giving them that.
Paulette: That’s not their damn business.” You know, and that’s another conversation about people don’t realize that marriage is a legal binding contract. And if you don’t see it that way, don’t get married. Live together in sin. I’m kidding. You know, oh, don’t. But, you know, a little joke there, Maggie, right?
Paulette: But you have to feel committed to the fact that not only is this a romantic notion, [00:25:00] it’s a legal one. So back to that, people have to be able to have awareness, logins and passwords and balances of all of your assets, all of your debt, and your income, right? Are you a W2 employee? Are you 1099? Are you…
Paulette: You know, what is your status of that? Are you a governent- government employee? You kind of on the pension route? Are you military, or are you like little Mr. Entrepreneur, Ms. Entrepreneur? [00:25:30] So everybody’s different. And then lastly, what is the budget? Because there’s the budget of being married, but there’s also the budget of A and B moving forward in two separate trajectories, right?
Paulette: And whether you’re both selling the property and moving into new Addresses or is one retaining it and buying out A, is the other retaining it and buying out B? Are you waiting to sell the house until a 15-year-old graduates from high school? There are many [00:26:00] different solutions that can happen in mediation privately, in particular, where you can take your goals into consideration that the court may or may not based on opposing side and the judge.
Paulette: So it’s a little bit complicated as far as that, but as far as it being you know, structured and that’s really the awareness of the financial aspect of it. Many people, men and women, [00:26:30] come to me and say, “I don’t know.” I don’t have the logins. I don’t have the passwords. I don’t know what we own. I don’t know what we owe.
Paulette: Yeah, I have a credit card, but it’s just, I don’t know. They’re just … I hate to say ignorant. Sometimes we like to call that naive or trusting.
Paulette: Whatever word you want to assign to it, or a combination of the three, right? That’s where that starts off with. If you’re not able to really fill those out, [00:27:00] then you’re going to have to need the help of additional professionals to come in to help you.
Paulette: The more you can prepare ahead of time before you know you have no choice but to file or litigate, or your spouse has magically rung the doorbell and you are now served, and you find yourself going, ” Wait, I’m getting divorced?” That’s really where you need the help of a professional. So I like to think of it as railroad [00:27:30] tracks.
Paulette: On one side, there’s the bowl of emotions, psychological, mental, emotional, physical, sexual, and spiritual. Kind of the woo side of marriage, right? I was a yoga teacher, so I can make fun of that, right? And on the other hand, it’s the spreadsheet. There is no emotion assigned to it. Now, there may be emotions for you, but as far as the spreadsheets are concerned, that Excel spreadsheet has no emotion.
Paulette: It’s a [00:28:00] piece of paper. So that’s the judicial, the legal, financial, residential, lending, insurance, and taxes side of it, and that’s the just the facts, Jack. If you can’t fill that out with the support of someone like myself or a financial planner or a CPA or, you know, or just doing … being a really good investigator yourself, going to the bank, asking questions, you know, printing out paper, looking on your
Paulette: you know, downloading apps and figuring out what you [00:28:30] have and what you don’t have. And logically, it would be helpful to have your spouse be transparent with you and the two of you sharing, but that’s where high-conflict divorces start. As soon as there’s this convoluted, evil, manipulative, game-playing mindset of it’s none of your business, that’s where you kind of go, so the longer you have before you say the D word to prepare, the better. Now, this is tough because a lot of my [00:29:00] clients say, “Well, how can I pretend? I … How … Teach me how to bite my tongue.” You know that saying, right? Duct tape works really well, but you have to learn to be a good actor or actress, and not to be fake or, you know, disrespectful or do anything immoral or illegal or wrong, but you have to kind of, you know, keep going until you feel like you have been researched and organized.
Paulette: And usually there’s some trigger. [00:29:30] Somebody says something to somebody and pisses them off and upsets them, whether they feel alienated, unappreciated, ignored, taken advantage of. There’s no congruent lifestyle. There’s no goals that they share, and there are 21 main reasons couples divorce. If you have all 21 of them, chances are you need me yesterday.
Paulette: If you only have two or three, that might be therapy, couples counseling or discernment counseling. I highly recommend [00:30:00] that. Whereas if you feel like, yeah, we have a lot of conflict issues then it is more likely that you would need additional support. But 73% of divorce is initiated by women, and two years is the average amount of time that women internally contemplate divorce in their own, what I call, private Idaho.
Paulette: Showing my age ’cause I loved the B-52s when [00:30:30] I was in high school. Yep, I know I’m 62. I’m an old woman. So I love that little song where they say, “You’re living in your own private Idaho,” and that’s exactly what you do. You live in your own little, like, obsessive controlling mind of, aah, fear, and that’s bad.
Paulette: This is where we make really bad decisions. We say things we shouldn’t say. We do things we shouldn’t do because we’re living in a world of fear, anxiety, and stress. And the [00:31:00] amygdala and all the hormones are going crazy, and you’re listening to friends, and you don’t know how to mitigate outside influences, and you’re Googling at 2:00 in the morning, and you’re ChatGPT-ing and clotting and every other AI tool there are, and there’s probably 50,000 more than I just said, but whatever you were doing is not serving you Because it’s adding to your anxiety and fear.
Paulette: So two years is the average amount of time that women, because 73% of divorce is [00:31:30] initiated by women, I didn’t make up these statistics everybody, that’s just real, is two years. That’s a long ass time to be sleeping with your eyes staring at the ceiling, so you’re not sleeping, with a toothpick on your eye, one eye open, you know?
Paulette: And you’re fearful. What do you say to the kids? What don’t you say to the kids? And how do they know? Every woman I’ve ever spoke to says, “Yeah, they’re not stupid, they get it.” You know, or they sense that. I always say, ” How aware are the [00:32:00] children that mommy and daddy aren’t getting along so well?”
Paulette: And that’s the word I say. And they always say, “Yeah, they get it.” So two years is the average amount of time I work with women before they do anything so they can feel researched, organized, prepared, knowledgeable, comfortable. And they also know that, yes, I am likely going to have to litigate, or you know what?
Paulette: We have a pretty good path towards mediation and coming up with a [00:32:30] resolution. Because as soon as the spouse… and keep teaching them how to, you know, I hate to say manipulate the manipulator, but teaching them that language is key to it. They must believe that it will benefit them more than it will benefit you.
Paulette: Even though it won’t, they have to believe that it will. Or depending on the personality and their perspective, they have to believe that it will harm them less than it will harm you. Some people want to hear [00:33:00] about benefits, some people want to hear about harm, some people like both. What am I… What’s in it for me, right?
Paulette: Veruca, “I want a new Paluma now, Daddy.” Right? This is what they say to me, Maggie, “I want the divorce to be cheap or free, fast and painless, and I want everything.” While
Paulette: they’re smoking something or drinking tequila. I don’t know what they’re doing. But that doesn’t… It’s not reality.
Maggie: Yeah.
Maggie: I know you, you know, really specialize in [00:33:30] helping people stay out of court. You know, you really work with women prior to understand it, everything. What does that look like in a high-conflict situation where the other person just doesn’t wanna cooperate? You know, you wanna do this nicer, more calmer route.
Maggie: You thought that was more of an option. And your partner says, “No way. We are going to drag teeth. We are gonna, pull out all the stops and make sure this is as painful as possible.”
Paulette: Well, there’s several things you need to do. Number one, you need to understand about the three E’s, entitlement, [00:34:00] exploitation, and lack of empathy. You need to understand that there are five methods of divorce and four things the courts care about. DIY, three forms of mediation, collaboration, arbitration, and litigation.
Paulette: You need to understand that the four things the courts care about, and that’s it, are legal and physical custody if you have children, so like decision-making and where they sleep, child support, that’s the kids, and a division of assets and debt. Depending on where you live, it could be community [00:34:30] property or equitable.
Paulette: That’s another, you know, conversation. And then spousal support, which used to be known as alimony or maintenance. So those are the topics. Once you feel organized and planned and researched, and you kind of say I get this logistically,” you dial down the anxiety yourself because they’re always going to be a pain in the ass
Paulette: Always, till they die.
Paulette: They’re never gonna stop. So accepting [00:35:00] that they are who they are is key. You learning how to manage them, and I give my clients a list of 100 magic phrases to use. They can’t use all 100 at the same time. They have to pick and choose and discern. But learning how to communicate with a high-conflict person is very important, otherwise you add gasoline to the fire.
Paulette: Now, they could be a covert difficult person, or an overt difficult person, or just kind of a, a avoider type of person. [00:35:30] You know, there are people that withdraw from any and all conflict, and they’re really tough to manage. Because you wanna engage with them, and they go, “I gotta go,” and they got the beeper, and they run out the door, and they’re, you know, always, “Oh, I’m, you know, I’m busy.
Paulette: I can’t talk,” and avoid, avoid, avoid. So again, I’m not a mental health practitioner. I do not diagnose, but I know these types of people ’cause I hear them and see them all the time. So you’ve gotta really understand your baseline of your situation. Once you get a plan, and you [00:36:00] understand that, and you’ve also maybe interviewed two, four, or 27 attorneys,
Paulette: it’s called conflicting out so your spouse cannot use them…
Paulette: I’m joking about the 27, but you know. You’ve done your… You’ve interviewed them, and you’ve found someone, ‘ cause you likely are going to have to litigate because they will never file. Why? It doesn’t benefit them. They like their life the way it is. Well, not to be personal, but if you’re still having sex with them, [00:36:30] they’re happy.
Paulette: You’re… If you’re keeping the house clean, and doing the laundry, and taking care of the children, and working, and making money, and you know, all the thousand things women do to keep the house, you know, fabulous, and House Beautiful cover photo shoot ready. The holidays, and the gift giving, and the meals, and the, you know, “You’re such a wonderful husband,” and, you know…
Paulette: And I know we all… Or wife. It doesn’t… This isn’t like a… We’re talking about the 73%, so that’s why I mention women. So there’s that, that sense of like [00:37:00] understanding where what you’re dealing with. Because a lot of women don’t want to accept they are who they are. He’ll change. I- if I’m a better wife or a better mother or a better lover or a better provider or I make a better meatloaf, they’re gonna suddenly wake up tomorrow and be this fabulous person.
Paulette: No, they’re not. So… And that’s hard, and they don’t always like when I say that. But there are also five stages of divorce: shock and denial, anger, I call that frustration, feeling trapped, [00:37:30] negotiating and bargaining, that’s the therapy thing, arm wrestling, tug-of-war, sadness, I call that melancholy, nostalgia, reminiscent, and finally, surrender, acceptance, and letting go.
Paulette: You’ve gotta know where are you. If you’re at acceptance and they’re still at shock and denial we got some work to do, right? If you’re both at acceptance, eh, I can mediate them in two hours. And everybody… And it’s not always like, you know, you go to step one and then two and then three. [00:38:00] Sometimes we take a step forward and two steps back, or two forward and one step.
Paulette: So once you understand where you are, and once you… where your partner is, then it helps you understand you’ve got a plan. the anxiety will slowly dissipate when you have a plan. You’ve spoken to attorneys. I also make huge recommendations to specific ones to interview based on where they live, naturally, their demeanor, because some people need an aggressive attorney.
Paulette: Some people need a cunning, kinda come in the back [00:38:30] door shy or kind of softer demeanor attorney. It depends on the person. Now, once they have done that due diligence and work and research and organized, they then understand the process of what it’s gonna look like. They also now have what they want Right?
Paulette: It may not be reasonable, but with my clients, they … I’ve taught them what’s reasonable, you know, within the advice of counsel. And they hand that to their attorney, or the one they’ve selected, and say, “This is what I [00:39:00] want. Is this reasonable?” And most attorneys, when they’ve done the work that my clients have done, will say, eh, most of the time, “Well, I might tweak a thing or two, but overall, good job.”
Paulette: You know? And then all they have to do is say, “Go get ’em, tiger,” and you have to go through the process. Now, knowing farewell, ahead of time, that these people are not going to comply, and you knowing that they’re not going to comply also doesn’t throw you for a loop. [00:39:30] You know it’s coming. You know, when you look at the weather and we know there’s a storm coming, whether it be a blizzard or a hurricane, we may not like that the storm is coming, it’s still coming, but we can prepare.
Paulette: If it’s a hurricane, we buy wood and we s- you know, block up the windows. Or you go leave town for a few days. Whatever you have to do. You can put out the sandbags and prep, get some food, and get batteries, and all that stuff we have to do. But when you don’t know there’s a storm [00:40:00] coming That’s a sh*t show,
Paulette: right? My clients are so prepared, and you know what they say to me, Maggie? “That’s … They did exactly what you said they were gonna do.”
Paulette: And I go, I know, isn’t it amazing? I’m a freaking fortune teller,” right? You know I’m kidding. But it … But they feel like empowered, knowledgeable, calm, because there’s no secrets.
Paulette: Now, there may be a secret with their spouse, and that’s also getting into the world of what I call the four A’s: abandonment, [00:40:30] abuse, addiction, and affairs. Sometimes those things come up or not, or you already know about them. You know, people are human. People screw up. Are … Do people get addicted to things?
Paulette: Yes. Do people have affairs? Yes. Is there abuse? Yes, and there are seven kinds, and I’m not condoning it, but it, welcome to being human, right? I mean, it’s part of being … You know, it happens. And abandonment is never fun, and it doesn’t always mean that they, you know, take a, a flight to Pluto and they’re just [00:41:00] gone.
Paulette: It means that maybe they travel a lot, and they’re never home, and, you know, they’re … They’ve really kind of abandoned or, shall we say, withdrawn from the relationship. Now, there are different levels of abandonment, so, you know, we’re just doing overall ideas here. But once you have a blueprint, which is why I call my book The Better Divorce Blueprint, you feel knowledgeable and calmer.
Paulette: And you also have a coach 24/7. “Oh my God, you would not believe what she or he’s just said to me. I don’t know how to respond to this [00:41:30] text message. What should I do?” You know, learning about co-parenting apps and understanding how to use them, and How do you document things, and what’s evidence? And, you know, because, a, a- an attorney is gonna say, “Do you have any evidence?”
Paulette: And most people go, ” Evidence? What do I need evidence for? Evidence of what?” Well, are there any text messages or phone logs, or do you have an email or a note or a letter? Is there a card? Did anyone witness what was
Paulette: said or done? Yeah. Is there … And they usually go, [00:42:00] “No.” Whereas if they work with me, I can go, now, moving forward, we can’t change the past.
Paulette: Get over it, don’t cry over spilled milk. get over it. It’s a hard lesson to learn, but we sometimes have to, you know, what was the lesson here, and then move forward. But you do have a, the power of changing the future about how you plan, not the past.
Maggie: Ton of great tips here. And the last one I just kinda wanna, like, leave off on is you’re [00:42:30] happily remarried. Like, any tips on
Paulette: So far so good.
Maggie: I mean, are you, like, super pro prenup now? I mean, you’ve had a long extensive time in a legal battle. Like,
Maggie: how do you, A, not bring that going forward, and B, like, protect yourself again for the second time?
Maggie: Just because we want everyone to be happy, and the first time we thought we were happy. You know, it’s like we don’t wanna redo our mistakes, right?
Paulette: Yes. Beautiful question, Maggie. I never thought I’d get remarried. I really didn’t. I thought I [00:43:00] would date and fall in love and have a significant person in my life, and I really had no idea what my, the next chapter of my life would look like. I met my first husband when I was 17.
Paulette: I got married. I’d just turned 17, and we got married the summer I turned 23. And yeah, so we dated seven years, you know, wasn’t you know, like, “Oh, hey,” you know? And I had my father who was an intellectual and said, “You’re going to college, young lady.” And my mother said, “You’re going to be a ballerina, young lady.”
Paulette: So that’s a whole nother podcast if you [00:43:30] wanna do that. But so I got married and wore a pink dress, and I looked like Glinda the Good Witch with my strawberry blonde hair and my, my dress was pink, no joke. Not quite as pink as Glinda’s, but pretty darn pink. And I was really young and naive, and I thought love conquered all, and everything was just gonna be fabulous, and we had three children.
Paulette: Anyway, you know what happened. But in my second, you know, chapter I just happened to luck out and meet a, a man with an entire, an incredible amount of, he’s this… [00:44:00] Every person that’s ever met him is like, “Wow, he’s a solid guy.” What you see is what you get. You know, he’s… We’ve been very transparent with each other ab- about both the bowl of emotions, remember the psychological, mental, emotional, physical, sexual, spiritual side, but also the financial da side.
Paulette: We’ve been an open book about everything, and trust has a lot to do with it. I’ve always had access to his phone. He’s always had access to my phone. I keep no secrets. He keeps no secrets. I have access to his financials. He [00:44:30] has access to mine. We talk about anything and everything. And is there always a risk?
Paulette: Sure. You know, welcome to, you know, life. Life isn’t perfect. But we do have a strong conversation about what’s premarital, what’s non-marital, and what’s marital. And whatever we’ve created during the course of our marriage would be considered marital, and I’m okay with that, and so is he. so far so good.
Paulette: It’s a nine-year marriage and all is very good. He’s a really wonderful man, [00:45:00] and I’ve never had anyone tell me otherwise, and his family is fabulous. I just, I lucked out. I said a few prayers about sending me a little angel that I needed and it wasn’t an easy road at all. But any man that sticks through you through a hellish trial but it, you know, he, Steven had nothing to do.
Paulette: His name is Steven, and everyone knows that. So, is you know, he’s the kind of person that is very calm,
Paulette: very zen.
Paulette: And I say about 120,000 words a day. I [00:45:30] think the national average for a woman is 60,000. He says about 10,000
Maggie: So you make up for that
Paulette: yeah, he’s a succinct communicator.
Maggie: Well, that’s awesome. We always love to hear a happy ending to a story.
Paulette: Well, the other reason we knew that we could get married is we lived … We sold everything and moved to a foreign country together and ran a business together. And if you can sell everything and, or give it away and move out of country, which was a, a very crazy thing to do. But it was … You [00:46:00] know, I was given the opportunity and I said, “I’m doing it.
Paulette: Do you wanna come?” And he said, “Yeah.” In fact, my daughter even came down for about a year and it was a, it was an adventure, Maggie. And anyone, anytime you can do that and run a business together … He ran it flawlessly, did all the bookkeeping, the billing, the hiring and firing. I did all the teaching, the managing, the directing, the marketing, the advertising.
Paulette: And I realized, you know, we are really an astounding team together. Everywhere we go people say, “You guys are a power [00:46:30] couple. You know, it’s amazing, you know, you work together.” ‘Cause he’s also a mortgage broker, and so in mediation, 85% of divorce involves the sale or purchase of real estate, so he’ll come in as the CDLP, Certified Divorce Lending Professional, and he helps people.
Paulette: I leave the room. Steve will talk to you guys, no obligation. You don’t have to work with him, but he’ll give you some solutions here of what your options might look like. And it’s really fun. It kind of reminds us of when we worked in our Belize adventure together, so. [00:47:00] You know, I can’t … I don’t know if that my advice would go for everyone listening, but have the hard talks.
Paulette: There’s a wonderful book, and I can text it to you, but it’s like the questions to ask your spouse, the conversations to have with your, you know, boyfriend, girlfriend before you get married, and we did the whole book together. It made a really big difference. And we have another wonderful book. I highly recommend this one.
Paulette: It’s called The Life Designer for [00:47:30] Couples.
Paulette: Can everyone see that?
Paulette: And it’s for couples. And it is fabulous. I help my clients with it who are getting into new relationships after divorce. Should I change my name? Should I not? You know, dating in the digital age, what does that look like? And it’s it can be scary for people, particularly if there’s been addiction issues or abandonment issues and infidelity.
Paulette: There’s a lot of lack of trust, so on both sides. So it it can be [00:48:00] hard for a lot of people.
Maggie: So
Maggie: our last question before we sign off is what does financial freedom look like to you on the other side of everything that you’ve been through?
Paulette: Financial freedom means being able to make choices from clarity instead of fear. When you don’t know you know, what did we say? We don’t know what we don’t know. Yeah I don’t think that’s a good response in this situation. I do believe that ignorance is not bliss. It means knowing what you own, what you owe, and what your [00:48:30] life costs, and what you want it to look like next. And for women listening who feel overwhelmed, I would say you don’t have to solve this entire divorce today. You know, if you are at least thinking about this, start with one step, find your records, write down your questions, speak with a qualified professional.
Paulette: Learn one thing about your finances that you didn’t know yesterday. Your marriage may be ending, but your ability to build a meaningful, secure life is [00:49:00] not.
Maggie: Mic drop. There you go. Thank you so much, Paulette, for coming on, sharing your expertise. Of course, all your links, show notes, books, all that stuff will be in the show notes so people can connect and reach out. But I think this is gonna be really impactful for our community of women either going through divorce, thinking about it, in the middle.
Maggie: I mean, there’s great content for wherever they’re at. So, thank you again for coming and sharing your expertise, and until next time, be financially fearless.
You’ve been listening to Women and Money: The Sh*t We Don’t Talk About. [00:49:30] Now it’s time to take what you’ve learned and make bold moves towards financial independence. Stay in the know by joining our newsletter for exclusive tools, resources, and updates that keep you financially fearless. Head to pursestrings.co and sign up today.
Need a financial professional who gets it? Turn to Purse Strings’ curated directory, your go-to resource for financial experts who know how to put you first. Love this episode? Leave us a review and help us empower even more women to own their financial power. Until [00:50:00] next time, be financially fearless
How to Reenter the Workforce After Divorce with SheQuip
You have been out of the workforce for years, you are in the middle of a divorce, and someone just told you that you need to get a job. Where do you even start?
This week we are sitting down with not one, not two, but three powerhouse women behind SheQuip, Pamela Lisle Smith, Carol Savvas, and Kate Rapier. SheQuip is a career reentry service built specifically for women coming out of divorce who need to get back into the workforce with confidence, strategy, and real support behind them.
Together these three are doing something that is genuinely needed. They are taking women who feel broken, overwhelmed, and completely out of the loop and helping them see that the skills they have built while raising kids, managing households, running fundraisers, and navigating life are absolutely valuable in today’s marketplace.
In this episode we get into the real stuff. How to rebuild a resume when you have been out of the workforce for years. Why LinkedIn is non-negotiable right now and how to actually use it. The free certifications and courses that can refresh your skills fast. How to negotiate your job search support right into your divorce settlement. And the story of a woman who said she had done nothing, only to reveal she had organized a fundraiser for over 1,000 people.
Carol’s reminder is this: what if it is easier than you think? Start walking. Get those
comfortable shoes on. The mountain in front of you might not be as steep as it looks. Join us for next week’s Money Talks “What Happens to Your Mortgage When You Divorce?”. Click here to registerfor FREE and bring your questions!
This episode is supported by Marguerita Cheng, CFP®, RICP®, CDFA®, CEO of Blue Ocean Global Wealth. Marguerita works with women navigating divorce to bring clarity, confidence, and control back into their financial lives. At Blue Ocean Global Wealth, the focus is on helping women understand their options, make informed decisions, and feel empowered about their financial future, especially during moments that feel uncertain or overwhelming. If you’re going through divorce and want support that’s clear, grounded, and centered on your long term wellbeing, you can learn more and connect with Marguerita at www.blueoceanglobalwealth.comand follow her on LinkedIn, Instagram, Facebook, and Youtube.
Disclosure:
Securities offered by Registered Representatives and Advisory products and services offered by Investment Advisory Representatives through Private Client Services, member FINRA/SIPC, and a Registered Investment Advisor. Private Client Services and Blue Ocean Global Wealth are unaffiliated entities.
Have questions? Click this to check out our expert Q&A for tips from industry experts, tailored to help women address their most common financial concerns.
Subscribe to our newsletter to receive financial tips delivered weekly here!
Barbara Provost, EdD and Maggie Nielsen, MBA are the co-founders of Purse Strings, a national platform helping women make confident financial decisions by connecting them with vetted financial professionals who truly understand women’s lives and money needs. Purse Strings connects women across the U.S. with vetted financial professionals who specialize in supporting women through divorce, money transitions, and financial independence.
Full Episode Transcript
(This transcript was generated using AI, so please excuse any misspellings or errors)
PS: SheQuip (MP3)
Maggie:[00:00:00] Sometimes we meet women going through divorce, and they’re like, “I’ve only been a stay-at-home mom.” Only. I’ve only raised a couple humans, only kept them alive, only take care of a couple loved ones while they were in hospitals, only brought them to the appointments, only ran the PTO meeting, and only volunteered once a week.
That’s it. That’s only what they did.
Dr. Barb: All that unpaid labor and skill.
Maggie: Managing people, keeping them alive, being a nurse, a chauffeur, all the things. And then they come and they’re like, “I don’t know. I don’t have skillsets for a job.”
Dr. Barb: I think you do.
Maggie: I think you’ve done a couple things for sure.
Dr. Barb: Yeah, for sure. I know, and you know, it’s interesting,
every day I see on Facebook women saying, “Oh, I need a job,” you know, “I’m going through a divorce. I gotta get back into the workforce,” all of that. My heart goes out to them ’cause I [00:01:00] feel such desperation coming through those messages, you know? Like they’re really spiraling almost and and like you say, they feel not equipped to go into the workforce, and they feel like they don’t have skills to offer.
But we know better, don’t we, Maggie?
Maggie: We do know better because they were doing a lot of things. We just have to figure out the fancy wording to them to make ’em for a job resume.
Dr. Barb: Yep, and we know a company called SheQuip who does just that for women navigating divorce, knowing they need to get back into the workforce. They give them all the steps along the way to really be a mirror to them around what their skillsets are, what they do have to offer, how they do add value, and they get them back to work.
Maggie: And just to take a little step on my soapbox real quick. The money, I get like divorce is expensive. You’re hiring the professionals, you got the attorneys, you’re maybe moving, all the [00:02:00] things. But the money you pay to help someone get equipped, do your resume, get a job, and negotiate is well worth it once you get a salary.
Even if you paid someone $1,000, they helped you get a job, and they help you negotiate to get five grand more. First, you saved time. You also got another five grand or four grand if you know, it’s net positive. So don’t be afraid to make the investment in yourself because, yes, we can do all these things alone, but we don’t have to.
Dr. Barb: No, and when you have the experts like them that have the secret super database and all the this is how you do it, so you’re efficient and you’re not frustrated, oh my God, so well worth it.
Maggie: Priceless. So just think about that the next time you’re making an investment. But I’m excited to share SheQuip with you and how they can help women going through divorce get back in the workforce. So let’s get started.
[00:03:00] Gloria Steinem once said, we will never solve the feminization of power until we solve the masculinity of wealth. Barbara Provost and Maggie Nielsen are the team at purse strings that will help you navigate the ins and outs of financial independence so that you can be financially fearless. This is women in money, the shit we don’t talk about.
Maggie: Today we don’t have one, not two, but three guests on the podcast today. So we got a lot of ladies talking, which we’re so excited about because what Pam and Kate and Carol, this gap that they’re filling is such a need that I have been seeing almost every day, honestly. So I’m excited about this conversation.
So, Pam, you wanna get us started of kind of who you are and what you ladies do and all about SheQuip?
Pam: Absolutely. Thank you so much for having us. SheQuip has been something that’s been on my [00:04:00] mind for a number of years. I am a divorced woman, and my background, as is Carol’s, is in retained executive search. And for decades, she and I have worked with placing top C-level executives, primarily in the life sciences, but also in academia and a number of industries. And because of that, we have, We know what good looks like in the marketplace. We know what employers are looking for and how to help people present themselves in their best manner. over these decades, of course, when people hear we’re a recruiter, we get a lot of families and friends saying, “Can you help my cousin out?
Can you help, you know, find a job?” and that’s– We don’t find people jobs. We, in this role, we equip people to find jobs, and we are parlaying our executive search experience into equipping women who have come out of trauma to understand that they have value and that even if they haven’t worked for a while, the things that they’ve done have value in this marketplace, and help them [00:05:00] develop a strategy for re-entering the market with confidence.
And Carol, has joined me in this, I’ll let her introduce, as has Kate, and both for very special reasons.
Carol: Thank you Pam.
Yes, so it’s been a wonderful 30 years or so that Pam and I have known each other and worked together in executive search. I fell into search accidentally. I really had an academic background and probably would’ve been teaching in a university somewhere. My passion, which it’s been since I was 15 but small town in Michigan, introduced to Asian literature junior in high school.
Went to Western Michigan University for undergrad, where the requirement was you had to take one course in Asian something. You could take it was called non-Western world, or you could pivot toward the Asian lit. Took the Asian lit again, and wouldn’t you know it? This is life. You just start walking and Windows are wide [00:06:00] open, doors are wide open to whole new universes.
And what happened was this professor, English professor, knew the Dalai Lama. The Dalai Lama He asked the Dalai Lama , ” Will you send a Tibetan scholar to teach because our Sanskrit scholar’s gonna go on sabbatical for a year?” They sent Ngawang Thondup, our kid from North India.
And wouldn’t you know it, Dr. Schaefer, call him Bob, one other student, and myself, we became the only three three students of, of Ngawang Thondup our language professor. And then after one semester, I was the only student left. Three years I got to study with him as his only student, working on my master’s.
And they were trying to get me into linguistics, but my heart, my passion was about a 12th century woman philosopher. Very unusual to find female teachers anywhere then in the ’70s, but I happened to have an advisor she was professor of religions who had written a [00:07:00] wonderful book at Western. She inspired me, Nancy Falk.
And from there, I was so happy with those studies that I ended up with a higher education master’s degree with a major in Asian studies. And I was married at the time. So this is where the plot thickens. I, at the same time that I was doing this, I was putting my husband through graduate school, and that’s another story, um, which we could share down the road.
But I did end up with a PhD and lots of complexities there. But I did work really hard to get a number of grants and side jobs, and after a long time in, partially in India, mostly in Switzerland with the Tibetan refugees there, completed the dissertation. And I would’ve wanted very much to teach.
I loved my subject matter, 12th… It was like a music therapy tradition. But my mom got sick, and I needed I needed money. I needed to help my little sister, who was in Minneapolis helping my mom, and I didn’t even have [00:08:00] a teaching job. But what I did have was a phone and the ability to call all my old bosses, which is what I did.
I made probably five calls, and the first one to call back and offer me a job, I took that job, and it was executive search in Switzerland. And that’s how I got started. And that’s how I’m here now, and it’s been a wonderful 30 years. I don’t regret any of it. I got to teach, too. I taught at NYU for 16 years in the School of Professional Studies at night af And, um, I’ve just loved it. I’ve had a wonderful time. And Pam called me right at the perfect moment when I had stopped working after all those years. And Pam’s idea for the company really resonated with my heart, helping women and what could be better? I have four younger sisters, 13 nieces and nephews.
They’re almost all nieces, and helping little ones and big ones has sort of been a life, a lifelong journey.
Here I am.
Kate:[00:09:00] Yeah.
And I can kinda introduce myself. My name’s Kate, and I’m in Nashville, Tennessee. And Pam and I have known each other for a while, and she came to me with this idea and just said maybe a few years, gosh, four or five years ago maybe, and just had this idea. And I was like, “Oh, I love this.”
Kinda helped her brainstorm a little bit. And then a few years later, she came back, and at the time when she first told me about this idea four or five years ago I was very single at the time. And then when she came back last year, I was actually going through a divorce. I was in the middle of a divorce.
And what I had already thought was an incredible idea to help women reenter the workforce, I now knew on a whole different level. And my viewpoint of my level of care and understanding for this specific woman was a totally different level. And so my background, I was a former music industry person. I was a backup singer and [00:10:00] did music in a duo for 20 years and kind of pivoted into social media, and I own my own marketing agency called Good Shift Marketing, and that’s how Pam said, “Hey, can you help me get this idea off the ground?
I’ve got Carol with me. We really wanna help women.” I was going through a divorce, and I was like, “Yes, absolutely.” And I kinda helped get the vision of, okay, what do we want this to be about? How can we get the word out? What are offerings? Like, what are ways that we can really help women? Because we’re not therapists, we’re not counselors, but you guys have this expertise to, like Pam said, get women attractive in the marketplace so that they can reenter with confidence, with the ability to know that divorce might have not been my plan, it might have unsettled me dramatically, but it’s not gonna be my future.
And so to come alongside women and just say, “You’ve got this,” and not only in theory, but in practicality of, hey, we actually all three have been through [00:11:00] this. We know what this is like. And so that’s how I got on board. And yeah, we’re just passionate about helping women reenter the workforce.
Dr. Barb: It is so necessary. And like Maggie said,
there’s not a Facebook scroll I don’t go through where there’s a woman saying, “Oh my gosh I need a job. You know, I got divorced.” And we know statistically, financially, women lose in divorce, right? Many have to get back in the workforce, and they’re feeling Not well-equipped, right?
To get into the workforce. They’re feeling devastated by divorce possibly. They’re still navigating how to, you know, live their life in this whole new role. And so I think what you’re doing is really necessary. So tell us a little bit about your typical client that you’re working with. Like, describe who she [00:12:00] is and what kind of services you provide.
Pam: Yeah. So it– we do a, really a gamut, but our typical client, Dr. Barb, is somebody who is, already in the divorce process and is now facing that, reality of panic, of I have to support myself now. And, you know, interestingly enough, Carol and I and Kate have all had great careers, but I will never forget that moment standing in my closet holding a pair of jeans thinking, “Do I put these on my head or my butt?”
And it just, uh, that… And I’m thinking to myself, “If I’m so terrified, what about the woman who has stayed at home for five or 10 years and they have to reinvent themselves?” So, a lot of these may… You know, we have had some that are thinking about divorce and are, you know, thinking ahead and wanna be prepared before they, they take that step. but the majority of them are already in the process. you know, our business frequently will be coming from, divorce attorneys or mediators, or therapists. some of the, you know, the CDFAs or, you know, [00:13:00] the certified divorce financial planners.
Let’s take a quick pause to hear from this week’s episode sponsor. Divorce can shake your confidence, not just emotionally, but financially, and in those moments, you deserve a guidance that brings clarity instead of fear. Hi, I’m Marguerita Cheng, certified Financial Planner, retirement income certified professional, certified Divorce Financial Analyst, and CEO of Blue Ocean Global Wealth.
I help women going through divorce gain clarity, confidence, and control over their personal finances so they can make decisions that truly support their future. At Blue Ocean Global Wealth, we focus on financial planning first because accessing competent ethical advice. Should not depend on the size of your investment portfolio.
Every woman deserves to feel financially confident, empowered, and resilient, especially during a life transition as significant as divorce. [00:14:00] Visit blue Ocean global wealth.com to learn more about how financial planning can help you navigate divorce with greater clarity and peace of mind. Now back to our show.
Dr. Barb: Yeah. They’re a great resource for you, right? ‘Cause those are all the people who are working with them with their moneys and in the midst, and they kinda know kind of their status and what they wanna be doing.
Pam: One of the things, and we’ve not really gone down this avenue a whole lot, you know, we just launched, late, very late last year. but something that we think would probably help take stress away from the women as they’re going through this is get these kind of things negotiated, in their divorce settlement.
You know, a service that would help really equip them so that they can be financially free and financially stable with confidence
Carol: The whole relaunch or return to work is something that large corporations are very much aware of and offering programs like [00:15:00] that, we feel that there’s a good basis for making this kind of request and just getting it into the settlement. So we, I think that could be very helpful for women. So we would like to explore the that possibility.
Maggie: So I kinda wanna lean in there, Pam, of when you talked about, you know, that confidence and women who haven’t really worked, you know, for years or kinda feel out of the loop, you know, they’ve been at home either with kids or just running the household. What actually helps them rebuild the confidence and get back in the game?
Pam: You know, um, we, we talk about paralysis, and it’s, terrifying to make that or take that first step. Um, one of the things that we do, and the first step that we take with our women is work with them and sitting back to evaluate what they’ve done. I think what helps most is not everybody has a resume.
If they do, it’s most likely not updated. But we work with them on helping pull together a resume, and [00:16:00] then allowing them to sit back and reflect on, “You know what? I did do this, and I can still do this, and I have value.” and then we have them talk about what they’ve done since they’ve been out of the workforce. you know, has it been a, You know, have you worked on volunteer projects? Have you done any fundraising? Have you organized? Have you budgeted? You know, all of those things that are marketable. We hear so much about the fear of entering the market, especially now with AI coming into play, and women being terrified that they don’t have that experience and that they’re not valued.
And, I’ll let Carol talk in just a moment about some of the technical aspects and things to help prepare and get some of those certifications, et cetera. But, what we also hear from people that we know that are, you know, hiring managers is the collaborative skills that a stay-at-home person has. the practical skills that they have. You know, those things are kind of the intangibles that you really can’t take… I mean, I guess you [00:17:00] could take a class on it, th-these women are bringing something to the market that they feel that they don’t have. it, it really does make a difference
Kate: Pam, will you tell the story of working with a client and she said something like, “I haven’t done anything. You know, I have nothing.” And then she told you about like the hundred or three hundred person like fundraiser that she had organized?
Pam: Right. This was so funny because she did, her first words out of her mouth was, “I haven’t done anything.” And so as we’re pulling out of her the, the things that she’s done, she said, “Oh, I, I did, you know, like a little fundraiser thing.” And I said, “Well, you probably had at least, what, 50, 75 people on, you know, that, that came to that fundraiser or participated?”
She said, “Well, no, I think it was about 1,000.” And that was such a clear example of how devalued we can get, that we just think we’re not worth anything anymore. And, we find that sad, which is why we’re doing what we’re doing
Kate: And I think that’s what Pam and Carol are so gifted at, [00:18:00] is kind of holding up a mirror to this potentially broken feeling, you know, discouraged woman and being like, “No, you actually have a ton of skills that I’m sorry, AI cannot organize a thousand people to come to a fundraiser.” Like, that is your skill set that you are bringing physically, and that is a value asset to somebody hiring.
So I think that’s just a really cool perspective.
Dr. Barb: Yeah. You know, we know that if women don’t check off all the boxes at 100%, they don’t feel qualified, and yet men going in will go like, “Huh, I can do some of those things,”
and they’ll go in. Like, we all need the confidence of a 21-year-old guy
to go in.
Maggie: So Carol, are there like designations or ways that they kind of improve their skill sets that you recommend before, you know, entering the workforce or kinda when they buff up that resume?
Carol: Yes a couple of things. There are lots of different courses, and [00:19:00] many of them are free, like a Coursera, different AI. But when you talk about AI, sometimes that’s very scary too if somebody has no familiarity. So we can leave that aside. But most important is, I think, for them just to get started one step at a time.
And what we like to do with the resume, helping with the resume, is to just remind them that it’s very easy If, if you have your eye on a couple jobs, just simply take that resume, tweak it, add a couple. Think about where your skills match that job you’re looking for, and just get those added two or three bullet points on the resume.
Pop that out. Feel free to change your story as you present We all do this every day. We talk about a different element of ourselves depending on who we’re meeting. So tailoring the resume a bit, thinking about… I like to say, “I have everything I need.” And then think about if that job calls for organizing, and like [00:20:00] Pam was saying our client didn’t even think about the fact she had organized 1,000 people, that kind of thing.
Just gently you can equip yourself to Ace an interview. Now, if you feel like, “Oh, it’s been such a long time and what can I do to refresh, to make an impact maybe with a new certification?” There Besides the Coursera, there are Google Career, many Google Career certificates that don’t take much time and are not too costly.
Project management, data analytics. These are really good jobs for people who’ve been out of the force for a while because it it refreshes kind of what you already know, but with that new relevant current perspective. There’s also LinkedIn Learning. A lot of LinkedIn Learning, it’s also not long, so it’s not like you’re saying to yourself, “Oh, it’s three years,” or, “It’ll take a year.
It’ll cost me $5,000.” I like to think of these little packages. I personally did that when I left my corporate role after so many decades. I really wanted to study [00:21:00] mindfulness-based stress reduction. Eight-week course. It was very manageable financially. It was just what I needed at the time to give me that confidence.
Oh I’m current now if I wanna go back and teach, but it’s with this mindfulness instead of my more mystical Tibetan meditation, which didn’t sound too relevant to the current workplace. So but it’s just a, like a mini course. You can also take relaunch programs. They actually have several path forward, iLearning relaunch returnship programs we talked about, like These are bigger corporations.
I think these are just some of the mini courses you can take to add relevance and update with a certificate.
Dr. Barb: Yeah. Those are fantastic. You offered a lot of great resources that are just available online twenty-four seven.
Carol: Just online. Oh and for also DOL, this is something I found out just recently, the Department of Labor, just [00:22:00] going on dol.gov, you actually can find many jobs right away. And I’ll do a little plug for Trader Joe’s, because a friend of mine was very had a high marketing role for many years in, in a consumer products company.
She got laid off along with others. She went to Trader Joe’s. I said, “What are you doing at Trader Joe’s?” She said, “We do everything.” Trader Joe’s doesn’t hire you for a specific job. It hires you because they think you’re valuable, and then you run the gamut of roles. I would say find companies like that, and then you don’t have to have a polished resume.
You just have to have you.
Dr. Barb: Yeah. Who doesn’t love Trader Joe’s?
Carol: All right.
Dr. Barb: So it.
seems like the job market has shifted, especially now. I just had a friend yesterday who was in a job for eight years as a project manager, and she got laid off. And she’s looking. So, you know, how [00:23:00] do you manage the ebb and flow of the workforce, especially these days?
Pam: it depends on where she is, you know, does sh- and this is one of the things that we do with the women that come to us, is I, I think that’s a great time to reflect on what you’ve done and what you need, and then what you want.
Some of the women that we work with, they need a job next week because they don’t have benefits and they can’t pay their bills, and that’s a whole different conversation. and you know, a woman like that, what we’re gonna do is… And, and I guess I should back up a little bit. You know, what we do, and we feel that this is so important, I’m not gonna write your resume for you, for two reasons.
Number one, and most importantly, if I do that for you, you haven’t gained confidence that you can do it. and I think it’s a big confidence booster to, figure something out with us helping you, right? We’re not gonna just say, “Go do it and come back.” But, you know, we’ll help you do that. but then, it also helps you as you’re thinking [00:24:00] about it and you’re writing it versus me writing your resume for you, it’s going to jog your memory and help you think about things that have value much more.
So anyway, to not digress, but, so a woman like that, we would work with her on, you know, get that resume. You’ve gotta have it done, right? And then putting that into LinkedIn and, and we’ll help guide them in that LinkedIn, you know, getting that and formatted, et cetera. but then, we will help them look at what their priorities are.
Is it benefits? Is it compensation? Is it flexibility because you have little ones and you need to work at home some? And then help them identify places that they can start applying so that it’s not such a huge… I think if you go on the internet all of a sudden and you’ve never done this and, “Oh my goodness, how do I look for a job?”
It’s totally overwhelming. And, we can give them some ideas of what sites to go to, like Carol, even just with the, you know, government, right? and then Trader Joe’s because they’re known for treating their employees well and having great benefits. but somebody kind of like the client that we had who had done that huge fundraiser, she had the luxury of sitting back and dreaming [00:25:00] about what she wanted.
And your friend might be in that situation as well, and it may be something totally different, but very achievable. And then we’ll help them brainstorm about industries, types of roles, and if we carry that further and they wanna continue working with us, we can even take that down to companies and then specific individuals for them to reach out to as opposed to just going on websites and submitting a generic resume.
Kate: And just one thing I’ll say real fast too that I’ve learned, ’cause this was not my background, like recruiting or any… That’s not my expertise, and what I’ve learned from Pam and Carol is that they also are a part of, like, a special database that they have access to people that the general public does not.
And so that’s another thing that I think is such a value add because, again, if you open your computer and type for a job, I feel like sometimes it just feels spammy or like ads pop up, and you’re like, “Oh, you have to pay money to even see a job, and what’s worth it?” I feel like to streamline that, especially for a woman going [00:26:00] through divorce You are already running at low capacity just given what you were going through.
To have Pam and Carol’s not only expertise in bringing the best to you, but then saying, “Oh, we actually have the hiring manager for this specific company’s email that’s not listed publicly.” Or, you know, like they have their special ways of like getting in contact with people. But I feel like that’s another thing is just like streamlining, because that’s what you need, is you need simplification. You need somebody who knows what they’re doing. And so I didn’t even know that existed, and what I’ve learned, especially seeing clients go through this process, is just the value add that brings.
Is just, okay, streamlining, like, this is where you want. Here, you can email. Here are five emails that it would take you five days to find, if that, and we can give them to you in an instant.
Dr. Barb: Yeah. Yeah, that’s your secret sauce, huh? Don’t give that away.
Maggie: It really is like you go on, you know, Indeed, and it’s just like a bunch of spam or a bunch of things that don’t resonate or it’s hard to filter. I mean, it’s just not [00:27:00] as giving. And so I do feel like there is a big thing about having the connections, you know, and talking to people and telling people, “Hey, I’m looking at…
You know, I’m happy to send my resume,” or to have those conversations because it seems like that’s the way you rise above the noise. And it’s like, I can look at all these names, but like, oh, if Carol knows them, well, then it must be better or real or whatever, ’cause there is so much noise out there.
And I know sometimes it, you get defeated of just like, “Well, I did 50 jobs,” you know? And I even remember like the first time getting a job and I went to the career center and I was like, “I did 75 applications.” She’s like, “That’s a great start.” I was like, “What do you mean that’s a great start?” It’s
like, my God. But it’s a lot.
Carol: And that’s why it’s wonderful if you can take advantage of your connections. if I may share a little life story It’s when I’m the one of the happiest moments, and I’m really proud of my baby sister. So I went to college when she was in first grade, [00:28:00] and I didn’t know she’d wrote me letters sometimes and said, I miss you,” but I And when she graduated from college, I was living in Switzerland, and she came and she said, “I always dreamt that someday we would live together.”
And she wanted to stay in Switzerland. So this And I’m telling you this, I, because networks, and in this case it was my network, helped my baby sister. So it happened that I applied for a job at the International School of Zurich at the same time that I was doing, I was still finishing the dissertation.
And I’d been working at this little search firm just trans-translating resumes from German to, to English with a lot of help from my friends. But then when I applied to the school, I got the job. And when the day that Dr. Lilburn, the headmaster, invited me to sign the contract, my sister was in town.
I took my baby sister, and I and purportedly I was there to sign the contract, but I said, “Dr. Lilburn, I’d only [00:29:00] sign this if you hire my sister. She’s a kindergarten teacher.” Well, I said it in jest, but it just happened that they had more enrollment than they’d anticipated, and they needed a third kindergarten teacher.
She got the job. She stayed four years and taught kindergarten. The first year it was spillover kids, and she didn’t even have a real classroom in the school. It was a trailer. She was in a little kindergarten trailer. But I’m And that’s why I wanted to say networking helps. You will be surprised at the people you know who love you or even if you’re they’re not family, if they see, “Oh, she does that so well.
I always was admiring her for this quality or that quality.” And then if you ask them, “Well, so great that you have that job. Any chance for me?” You never know. And I didn’t, I wouldn’t have thought of taking my sister with me if she hadn’t told me about her dream to live together someday.
Dr. Barb: Yeah, that’s fabulous.
Carol: it’s connections make a big [00:30:00] difference, too.
Maggie: If you get a no, you’re still in the same exact spot, right?
Carol: Exactly, Maggie. Exactly.
Maggie: so if someone’s listening right now and says, “Ugh, I haven’t worked in years. Where do I even start?” What are like two to three steps she should take this week to start taking those steps forward?
Pam: Mm-hmm. They should start writing it down. Write down what they’ve done. give thoughts to what they’ve done. work on even just a rough draft of a resume. and then talking about those networks, they should reach out to friends as well as former colleagues from a networking perspective, but also they may see something in you that you don’t see, and there may be really valuable things that, that you can be marketing that you just don’t know that you have. and then once you get that resume done, I would say we talked about the fear of going on the internet, but go on, and apply for five jobs just to get started and just get moving and lose a little bit of that fear. and you, [00:31:00] think it’s critical that you get going. one of the things that, that we do and, and I would advise people, you know, if we’re working with them or not, is set a goal of what you’re gonna do.
And we work with our clients typically once a week or every other week, to have a structured pattern of just keep moving forward. Don’t stop, don’t get stalled. and make yourself… It- one of the things that, that Carol and I did in executive search, and we worked on a lot of really complex jobs that sometimes neither, I mean, Carol has her PhD, n- but neither of us are scientists, right?
And we did a lot of high science work. And so what we would do is we would, you know, learn as much as we could about this job and, then we would call like our first probably 10 people that we would call to talk to about this job to see if they had an interest, would be people that we really didn’t think would be the best candidates.
And the reason we did that is because sometimes you just get one or two shots, and we wanted to get really comfortable talking about the job, and [00:32:00] these women need to get really comfortable talking about themselves and about their stories. Yeah. So I think that’s really critical
Carol: Yes, every call doesn’t have to end up with a job, but it informs you for your path forward.
Building that
confidence.
Kate: And I would say a step that they should take is go to our website. We have a free resource on our website, shequip.org where they can get like five next steps of what you should take. We have a whole resources page, so even if they don’t end up working with us, if somebody is facing divorce, thinking about, go to our resources page.
We’ve got just a lot there to support because you are navigating a ton of different, you know, lots of things. And so just something, again, to help streamline the chaos of, “Oh my goodness, I’m in this…” ‘Cause, you know, some women have the luxury of debating, “Oh, am I gonna get divorced? Am I not?” You know?
And others, it’s like, “My life was this way one day, and [00:33:00] now I’m completely blindsided, and I’ve never one time thought about divorce or re-entering the work…” Or yeah, just so many different circumstances bring you to this point. And so again, if we can help streamline that, bring a little bit of calm to the chaos, that’s what we wanna do.
Maggie: Does SheQUIP do any like coaching, practice interviews, things like that to help you get started as well? Or is it more like resume help and applying for positions?
Pam: We definitely do. and you know, I always, for some reason I’ve always kind of cringed when people ask if we coach, and it’s not because, we’re just not therapists. I, so, uh, and I’ve always kind of put the two in the same bucket when I really shouldn’t. But essentially I think we do from a job coaching perspective, we absolutely do.
So we offer three packages. The first one is working on, resumes and LinkedIn profiles. the second one would be then carrying that further. That the first would be two sessions. the next would be four sessions, and it would include, very strategically targeting where they wanna go, [00:34:00] and then identifying some people for them to proactively reach out to. and then we carry that further into that more pure coaching, and then continuing to set that momentum of providing additional resources, additional people for them to contact on a weekly basis. and then we will work on interview preparation. And, one thing that I think if you read all studies say that women are underpaid, and so one of the things we also…
We will carry that forward to compensation negotiations as well. That’s a critical component.
Maggie: And so you started with your resume and LinkedIn. So is LinkedIn a must these days?
Carol: I think it is. I think it is. And I’ll tell you something, you can get a job with a little help from your friends, which astonished me ’cause I had no idea that people would see over the years my resume and click. They would add skills. “Oh, yeah, she she made good conversation. She was strategic.
She has excellent writing ability.” And one by one you know, sometimes the way that I got approached for [00:35:00] new jobs wasn’t anything of my own doing, but the other people were clicking the skills, which was a huge education to me because once I realized that there’s so many places on LinkedIn that you can you can add your own skills, you can tailor your skill expertise portion of your LinkedIn for the jobs you want.
And because I can guarantee you nowadays 100% sure the big companies that have these HR Departments, they are running all those Indeed or any resumes that come through get run through AI, and AI filters out based Oh You, you know if you’ve ever applied on Indeed, they’ll tell you’re a medium, high, or low possibility for this role.
It’s because they throw your resume into AI and it comes out based on the skills you put there.
So, we like to think, take a little extra time to add the skills for the roles you want. [00:36:00] And you don’t have to redo it every time because it’s a big machine out there, the AI. They throw it in and you will be found.
You will be found matched, matched.
Maggie: Yeah, it’s so funny ’cause sometimes I know people are still like, “I don’t think I need a LinkedIn,” and, “My headshot is fine,” and I’m just… Even people who have jobs, I’m like no. That needs to be updated. You have hair, you don’t have hair now, you did then. Let’s get that updated.” You know? I don’t care if you turned gray, but, like, let’s just be who we are, right?
And so I know some people are still like, especially if you haven’t been out there in the workforce, LinkedIn is newer. And so if, you know, if it’s been 10 years, it’s gonna be like, “What is this? What is this territory?” But you have to get comfortable with it ’cause it’s… if you’re in business, you’re on LinkedIn.
Carol: And so many people, Pam, didn’t we realize that in the last 10 years or so, instead of putting a resume, sometimes people just send their LinkedIn URL.
Carol: We very often communicate just directly to [00:37:00] prospective candidates when we were doing search directly on LinkedIn, and don’t even have to look up their phone number or Instagram or email.
Yeah. It’s a it’s a good tool.
Maggie: Well, I feel like this has been such a needed thing as like, you know, Barb and I say, we have so many women reach out who are going through divorce, who need to get back in the workforce and are overwhelmed, you know? And we could see always the things that they’ve done. I’m like, “Wow, you’ve raised kids.
You’ve raised, you know, you’ve helped aging parents. You’ve navigated all of that.” You know you can do it, but when it’s applied in a different realm, it can definitely seem overwhelming. So having this resource out here is super helpful as we’re all about having the right professionals in your corner.
And so we’re excited that we’ve, you know, that you guys have launched this business and that we’ve been able to connect with you guys so early and share this with our audience as well. There is a question we like to ask all of our guests, so I’d love to hear the answer from all of you. you know, after we’ve all had our lives, we’ve had these different careers, been divorced and, you know, now doing a new business venture, what [00:38:00] does financial freedom look like to you?
Pam: Really being in a position to help other people and being able to do more than just pay bills, but being able to lift somebody else up and assist them as needed. The area that I raised my kinder- my kids in, was filled with refugee families. Um, so somebody that has, you know, we’re not all as blessed
Carol: Same for me, Pam. You know, my, my career really, especially in search past 30 years, was really motivated by the need to provide for my mom who was sick and my little sister. And I’m so glad that I was able to do it. The job, it, it provided that financial freedom to do what I wanted to do the most, which was help my loved ones.
And rewarding.
Kate: I love that. I think that the ability to have freedom, I think is the motivator, but I think also to not fear money. I think so many Women especially, it’s just, it’s taboo, it’s… There’s so many unknowns, you can feel like such an idiot [00:39:00] around money. I mean, this is coming from my own personal story of like, “Oh, I should know this by now,” or, “I should…”
And so I think financial freedom is not living in fear. And I think so many women, especially coming from divorce, their identity is… they’re fearful now because their lifestyle’s gone or their security is threatened or something like that. And so I think just not taking those baby steps to overcome that fear one at a time, whether it’s like, “Okay, I’m actually gonna look at my numbers,” or, “What am I actually spending every month?”
Or, “How much debt am I actually in? How can I get out of that?” Really changing your mindset, I think that is financial freedom is to not live in fear about, you know, numbers and finance and then to be able to move into that generosity space is huge, so.
Maggie: Be financially fearless.
Kate: Exactly. Yeah. Exactly.
Carol: And one thing I love to, to remember is something a dear friend of mine [00:40:00] shared with a group of women who were all going through life change. And she said, “What if it’s easier than you think?”
I carry that with me and it, the fear goes away.
What if it’s easier? It might seem like a mountain. Start walking, get those good shoes on that are comfortable, and what if it’s easier than you think?
Maggie: Well, thank you, all three of you, coming on today and starting this business and really supporting more women through divorce. So we’re excited to have all of your links so all the listeners can connect with you and get the support that they’re looking for. And to happy job searching.
Best of luck out there. So until next time, be financially fearless.
Outro: You’ve been listening to Women Money, the shit we don’t talk about. Now it’s time to take what you’ve learned and make bold moves towards financial independence. Stay in the know by joining our newsletter for exclusive tools, resources, and updates that keep you financially fearless. [00:41:00] Head to PurseStrings. co and sign up today. Need a financial professional who gets it? Turn to PurseStrings Curated Directory, your go to resource for financial experts who know how to put you first. Love this episode? Leave us a review and help us empower even more women to own their financial power. Until next time, be financially fearless.
Trial Separation & Mediation: The Divorce Wake-Up Call with Amanda Silver and Alex Howard (Dirty Laundry Podcast)
Divorce is emotional. But for many women, the financial side can be the biggest shock of all.
This week on Women & Money: The Shit We Don’t Talk About, Barbara and Maggie sit down with Alex and Amanda, divorce mediators and co-hosts of the Dirty Laundry podcast, to share the real financial realities women face during separation and divorce.
Alex and Amanda share what they see every day behind closed doors, from hidden debt and emotional fights over “the Peloton,” to the financial wake-up calls that happen when one partner has been managing all the money. They also explain why mediation can help couples avoid high-conflict court battles, protect their finances, and create healthier co-parenting relationships moving forward.
00:49 Meet Alex & Amanda from Dirty Laundry 05:05 Why unpaid labor matters in divorce 06:10 Trial separations explained 09:45 Can trial separations save marriages? 16:40 Why mediation works differently than court 20:00 Learning healthy conflict resolution
Alex and Amanda also remind women that even if they feel overwhelmed right now, they are capable of rebuilding financial confidence and creating a future that feels safe, secure, and fully their own. Whether you’re navigating divorce, supporting someone through it, or simply trying to understand your finances more deeply, join us for next week’s Money Talks “Protect Your Assets During a Divorce”. Click here to registerfor FREE and bring your questions!
This episode is supported by Marguerita Cheng, CFP®, RICP®, CDFA®, CEO of Blue Ocean Global Wealth. Marguerita works with women navigating divorce to bring clarity, confidence, and control back into their financial lives. At Blue Ocean Global Wealth, the focus is on helping women understand their options, make informed decisions, and feel empowered about their financial future, especially during moments that feel uncertain or overwhelming. If you’re going through divorce and want support that’s clear, grounded, and centered on your long term wellbeing, you can learn more and connect with Marguerita at www.blueoceanglobalwealth.comand follow her on LinkedIn, Instagram, Facebook, and Youtube.
Disclosure:
Securities offered by Registered Representatives and Advisory products and services offered by Investment Advisory Representatives through Private Client Services, member FINRA/SIPC, and a Registered Investment Advisor. Private Client Services and Blue Ocean Global Wealth are unaffiliated entities.
Have questions? Click this to check out our expert Q&A for tips from industry experts, tailored to help women address their most common financial concerns.
Subscribe to our newsletter to receive financial tips delivered weekly here!
Barbara Provost, EdD and Maggie Nielsen, MBA are the co-founders of Purse Strings, a national platform helping women make confident financial decisions by connecting them with vetted financial professionals who truly understand women’s lives and money needs. Purse Strings connects women across the U.S. with vetted financial professionals who specialize in supporting women through divorce, money transitions, and financial independence.
Full Episode Transcript
(This transcript was generated using AI, so please excuse any misspellings or errors)
Maggie:[00:00:00] So whenever I hear something about getting divorced, they’re always like, “I’m going straight to my attorney.” And every time I just want to pump the brakes. Pump the brakes. Because everyone thinks with divorce, go straight to your attorney and you’ll get it done, bada bing, bada boom.
You could. It’ll be very expensive. That’s why I’m so excited today to have on two mediators, because mediation, for some, can be a really great way to get through divorce, save a ton of money, and get it done much faster. And mediators also understand the importance of a team with maybe a financial coach, some kind of therapist, maybe somebody to help with the parenting coordinations.
But also, of course, our wonderful CDFA, certified divorce financial analyst certified divorce loan professional, maybe even a divorce realtor, all these different specialties. And so whenever people say, “Yep, I’m gonna go to my attorney,” I always want people to rethink [00:01:00] about different options, because yes, divorce is gonna cost you money either way, and I know it doesn’t always make sense that more professionals can actually help you, but a lot of these decisions are set in stone, so we wanna make sure people get them right the first time, as they’re very hard and even more expensive to go back and fix if you can.
So with our two mediators today, we are going to learn a lot about mediation, the benefits of a trial divorce , where we’re seeing mistakes when it comes to finances in divorce, but also how to trust yourself later after the divorce. So I’m excited for this episode. Not only are we learning a lot of things, but we’ve got a lot of energy in this one.
So let’s get started.
Gloria Steinem once said, we will never solve the feminization of power until we solve [00:02:00] the masculinity of wealth. Barbara Provost and Maggie Nielsen are the team at purse strings that will help you navigate the ins and outs of financial independence so that you can be financially fearless. This is women in money, the shit we don’t talk about.
Maggie: I love when we have another duo with us. So today, we have Alex and Amanda.
So before we dive in, let’s share who you are and what you do.
Alex & Amanda: Well, thank you for having us. We are both divorce mediators, and we are co-hosts of the podcast, “Dirty Laundry,” which is about divorce and everything else that goes along with it. Relationships, parenting, all that sort of stuff. I got into this line of work as a child of divorce, really. It’s kind of an ongoing joke with my therapist that I just want to save everyone from a childhood of really, really bad divorce and bad co-parenting.
So that’s kind of the lens with which I look at it. But ultimately, yeah, as mediators, we’re trying to keep people out of court, keep folks out of high-cost, high-conflict [00:03:00] litigation, and just offer up a better way. So that’s a little bit about us. Yeah. And provide a little bit of levity and humor- Mm-hmm
along the way with our show. So- Yeah …
Maggie: We need some humor with divorce.
Alex & Amanda: Right? We do. Hard enough. We really do. It’s hard enough, yeah.
Maggie: Alex, can I ask you how old you were when your parents got divorced?
Alex & Amanda: I was eight years old.
Maggie: Oh, so you know how to pack a good overnight bag, a good
weekend bag.
Alex & Amanda: Yeah,
Maggie: I feel like there’s a generation of us who know how to pack for Wednesday night and every other weekends. You know? Like, we know how to pack a bag.
Alex & Amanda: Sounds like you know firsthand. Yeah. Yeah.
Maggie: know it was a little later in life.
But yeah that and my friends, like, I mean, a lot of us had divorced parents, so it was like, “No, I’m…” You know, “Are you at your mom’s? Are you at your dad’s?”
Like, “Can we hang out or not?” Like,
Alex & Amanda: Yeah. It’s nice when you can do it when, like, your cohort, your friends those around you are in a similar vibe. I was the first of my friends, and that was so novel and I carried a lot of stigma around, so that’s part of this whole thing.
The more we can lift the veil [00:04:00] and just destigmatize this whole thing. I mean, relationships end. It’s hard, it’s awful, but, like, let’s do it a better way and let’s not ostracize those that are going through it, because you never know.
Maggie: I was definitely, yeah, one of the last kids, and so then it was like, “Yeah, we all know what this is like. ” Welcome,” you know? “Welcome to the party.”
Alex & Amanda: Exactly.
Maggie: So do you have, like, a story or a moment that really opened your eyes on how messy money can get in divorce? ‘Cause this is Women & Money: The Sh*t We Don’t Talk About.
So let’s get into the messy things first.
Alex & Amanda: Love it. So let’s talk about that sh*t. Yes. We can see a messy side when they come into our offices and they are now dividing up their finances. And in traditional marriages when, let’s say, traditionally the husband was in charge of the money and the wife was in charge of the kids, when it comes time to separation, they don’t always see everything.
So that can be quite eye-opening. But in terms of messiness, I always talk about my Peloton story because and I think every family has this Peloton. For some it’s a toaster. Yeah. But it’s basically, it’s [00:05:00] something that you attach emotional value to that has, that’s greater than the monetary value.
So, for example, I had clients who they were arguing over the Peloton, and they spent more of my services, like more on my fees, than the Peloton was worth. And even when I pointed that out to them, it didn’t really matter because it had an emotional value. And so I try to caution people when they are entering this process to really look at it from sort of a more bird’s-eye view and not get so stuck on those emotionally valued items.
You know, aside from children, of course, but inanimate i- objects that can be replaced. Yeah.
Maggie: I know so many people who just use their Peloton to, like, hang their clothes on, so shout
out to both of them using the Peloton. Like
Alex & Amanda: No, you use a big screen to hang your nice clothes over the Peloton. Yeah. The emotional entanglements- Yeah … to finances is something that is not unique in divorce. I have never had a single case where someone did not get emotional [00:06:00] instantly upon speaking about finances. And a lot of it comes back to we don’t value home domestic labor in the same way we value external work. And so what you’re left with is typically, again, in a heteronormative man and wife sort of situation, is you see the man working, you see the woman staying at home, and then all of a sudden on divorce, it’s like, “Oh, I get half of everything ’cause that’s what the law says?
But wait.” And so there is this such an emotional tanglement with that division of labor that’s now being sort of, like, it’s come to the, its reckoning point where you’re like, “Yeah, yeah.
No, I actually do get something from this marriage because I actually did put in countless unpaid hours.” So again, we’re making large brush strokes, but I would say that’s pretty typical to what we see.
Yeah.
Maggie: Yeah, that makes a lot of sense. And we always talk about how it’s not just the time you spent at home working, which is great and helpful for the family, but it’s like you can’t just go, “Go get a job.” Like, I’m gonna go back. I haven’t worked in [00:07:00] 10 years. Like, it’s not just like stepping back into $100,000 role which we just, “Just go get a job.”
You know? It’s not like that. And so it’s has to be kinda even in that sense as well, which I’m sure you guys see.
Alex & Amanda: And that’s where we talk about alimony or spousal support as we call it, and that’s sort of where that comes in. Because you can’t expect someone who’s been out of the workforce and who has sacrificed… It’s also about the sacrifice, right? They’ve sacrificed so much employment opportunities so that, let’s say, their husband could go and ex- you know, rise the la- the corporate ladder to raise a family and to have the children and to be home.
So you can’t expect a woman to just flick a switch and have an established career like that.
Maggie: We are amazing, but I mean, …we
can’t, we can’t do all that. Like, come
Alex & Amanda: Yeah. There are still limitations. Yeah. It takes time.
Maggie: And so I’ve heard you guys talk about this trial separation for broken marriages. Can you share a bit about this idea, what it entails, all the good stuff?
Alex & Amanda: I love a trial separation because [00:08:00] you can actually put in place some of the decisions before locking into them. So for example, you come up with an interim parenting plan. So again, going back to our very traditional couple over here that we alluded to earlier, where the woman was maybe not as experienced in finances, the man was maybe not as experienced in childcare.
And so if a man, if a dad, if, again, in this broad strokes approach, we are talking about a dad who has been very hands-off, a trial separation, an interim parenting plan means go have at her. You want 50% of child time? Love that. Support that. Don’t want to take the kids from their dad. Put your money where your mouth is.
Let’s see if you can do it. Let’s see if you can attend appointments and follow up with teachers and make sure homework is being done. Like, there is so much minutiae, but really, really important aspects of parenting. And I have seen, I have to say, ’cause I don’t want this to be a sh*t on dad episodes, I have watched so many rise to the challenge and become the dads that maybe they were held back [00:09:00] in their traditional marriage from being.
So it’s not all a bad thing, but what it means is you get to have a bit of a dress rehearsal before you really put ink to paper and finalize things. You get a bit of a trial run. And from the relationship component too. You know, before making something that’s very permanent- Yes … like going down the road of divorce, a trial separation really helps you decide, is this something that I– do I wanna live without this person, right?
Yeah. Or do I wanna make that relationship work? So it gives them the time that they need to not make rash decisions, but, like, think about it and make an informed decision. Yeah.
Maggie: So would you say this is still like– Like, what’s kind of the length of time here? ‘Cause it sounds like you’re still renting a new place, you’re furnishing it. I mean, you’re taking big steps.
Alex & Amanda: The only reason I’m disagreeing and pushing back- Yeah … a little bit is just because of the costs associated. So I think typically more what we see is someone moving down to the basement, for example.
And that would be, like, step one of a trial [00:10:00] separation. Let’s see what it’s like to not be in the same space, to not share a bed, to, “Okay, I’m gonna go close my door,” and you’re in charge of bath and kids and dinner and whatever. So you have the safety of, and still the comfort of your own home.
You have the you’re offering your children this sense of security. Nothing in their life has really changed, ’cause kids don’t really realize if one parent moves to the basement or is sleeping, so, “Oh, I’m not feeling well,” or what- I mean, you can kind of, Depending on their age. Yeah. Fair, fair, fair.
For sure. Point, fair. Yeah. Yeah. But it’s a bit more of a gradual thing, and I think, again, just because of the rising costs of living, it’s really hard to be like, Yeah. I’m gonna go get an apartment, and furnish it, and move out, and be paying for two places.” And ultimately, that’s gonna be the reality if you do go through with your divorce.
So a good opportunity to see what budgeting looks like and what the cost of living on a you know, single income, et cetera, looks like. But I think, Yeah. if folks are considering it, if you have the luxury in your own space of doing that, of separating physically but maintaining your home, because there’s going to be such a financial burden.
Divorce not only costs a lot to actually do [00:11:00] the divorce, but then you’re running two households, often on the same income you had during your marriage when you were running one. So there’s a lot to consider. It’s something you don’t wanna rush into, it does take a significant amount of time to really get into the new routine, to really test out what a trial separation looks like. So don’t do it for six weeks then be like, “Well, this isn’t working. Let’s- No … quit.” It’s like do take the time. Do take the time.
Maggie: Yeah, Okay do you guys have any insight of success or kind of results that you’ve seen from that? Do you see more people kind of be like, “Yeah, we wanna stay separated,” or more people being like, “Actually, I didn’t realize how much you did for all of us”?
Alex & Amanda: It is a good question. Do I see reconciliation? I have seen that. I think that time, that trial time gives you time to process and get the clarity. I always feel like you can’t have that clarity until you six months, a year, sometimes longer down the road.
You can’t be expected to see like you will be in, in that time. So I think that it really offers you that time to really think about what you want [00:12:00] and maybe it is a reconciliation. We have seen that. I had one actually early on in my career which was so interesting, ’cause I was like, “Oh, this is cool.”
Like I didn’t expect this in my practice. But they had done a trial separation. They were physically separated but in the same matrimonial home. And again, the, they developed this parenting plan and all of a sudden the wife was like, “Oh, I’m getting the help I need.” They were in conversation with me, which is not therapeutic to be clear.
Mediation is not therapy. But it is very… Like you have your ability to voice your concerns, to state your needs, to air your grievances. And so they were in this format whereby they could have open conversations with one another guided by a third party and the result was, “Oh, we just really were lacking in communication.
We just really didn’t understand- Yeah … what the other was going through and now we do. And in doing this interim parenting plan, we’ve learned that like, yeah, we’re both capable. We both need time off [00:13:00] of parenting and we both can do the job.” So one was able to pull back, one was able to step in, and all of a sudden there was more balance.
And I mean, that was six years ago and I’ve never heard from them since so I’m gonna just hope that they’re still together. Yeah. So it does happen. It does happen. Relationships are hard and a lot of people, like we don’t learn how to communicate. We don’t learn in school how to do our taxes and manage a budget anymore, right?
We just take all these things for granted until we’re in crisis and then we’re so quick to pull the plug. And so, you know, some folks go to couples counseling, some people do a trial separation. It’s whatever makes sense in your relationship.
Maggie: Yeah, that makes a lot of sense. And it is kind of like you’re focused on so many things, and I kind of think you lose focus on the relationship. And we
have seen people either, once you really see what the partner is doing, or we’ve seen people meet with, like, a CDFA, and once they both understand their finances, they’re like, “Oh, that was our only problem.”
Like it is that communication and just understanding their point of view and just taking some time for that. Not always, but sometimes, yeah.
Alex & Amanda:[00:14:00] Yeah, not always. I will say on the flip side, I’ve never met a divorced person who regrets their divorce either. That’s true. I have yet to. Take with that what you will. Exactly. And that could be because of the process or there’s all kinds of reasons for that.
But so far I have yet to encounter that.
Maggie: where do you see women getting the most blindsided financially kind of in this legal process?
Alex & Amanda: So we’re talking about traditional marriages where one person is sort of in charge of the finances and the other person does more of the parenting. In those situations, separation and divorce can be a wake-up call, a financial wake-up call, because they have the legal right to see everything, right? Some people decide not to go down that full financial disclosure route, but for the most part, you have to. And so in doing that, it can be a very eye-opening but scary process for women. So for example, if you’ve never seen a property tax bill or a hydro bill, or you don’t know anything about your investments or your debt, it can be quite intimidating to take that on.
And so we walk them through [00:15:00] it. We work also with financial analysts that we might pair up with someone to, like, actually translate it all into understandable language. But sometimes people are caught off guard, women especially, about their financial circumstance. Maybe they thought that they had more than they did.
Like, their family was spending, their family was living a lifestyle that maybe they actually couldn’t afford, or they were living off of debt. And so when that realization comes that this is actually the financial picture, and now we have to divide that up, it can be quite enlightening. Yeah. That’s such a great point. If you are living, for example, in a beautiful home and everything is… You know, you assume, “Well, I’ll get half of this home. That’s loads of money. I can make it on my own.” And then you realize your house is mortgaged to the tits- Yeah. there’s no equity, and you’re actually walking away with nothing.
That, I think, is the biggest eye-opener. And it’s not specifically women, though again, in these more traditional kind of roles, it does happen more often, I would say, to women. But we see people trying to buy each other out of their homes, and it’s like, [00:16:00] “Oh, no, we have to sell it. We have to put it on the market.” Yeah … And then you’re stuck with, ” Well, this is a terrible market right now. We don’t wanna sell, but we have no choice.” Like, it’s- Right … it, there’s a lot of steps of like, “Ugh, damn it. Oh, no, not this too.” Mm-hmm. “Oh, crap, I forgot about that.” So it’s really like in terms of the, how we support our clients, it is either pairing them up with de- you know, depending on their sort of financial acumen, somebody who could maybe do a lot more hand-holding.
But a lot of it, at least certainly the way I practice, is let’s just do it piece by piece, because nobody can handle that much. Like, whether it’s to make a decision, to learn a whole new language of money and numbers, to do your budget. So I really try and break it down for them. But think for the most part, people have, like, a tertiary understanding about their financial portfolio, and for the most part, we’re all so busy with jobs or raising kids or the news, which is heartbreaking at, on a good day, that- Some things kind of fall [00:17:00] by the wayside, and then in divorce, you are forced to look at everything.
You have no choice, and that can be really, really, really tough at a time when you’re also emotionally trampled while trying to go through all of this. So it’s not easy. It’s not easy. If, again, not to go back to a trial separation, but if folks are thinking about it, if you have listeners that are considering divorce or just divorce curious, go talk to a financial advisor.
Start to gather things. And if you have to do it in, not a sneaky way- No, no … but not announcing to your partner, but start getting- Ask questions … go to your bank, talk to the manager, get an idea about what you’re actually looking at, especially things like the equity in your home if you own a home, because that is typically where most people are spending the majority of their money to maintain their home, and that’s what they’re hoping to get out of the relationship.
So I would start there for certain.
Let’s take a quick pause to hear from this week’s episode [00:18:00] sponsor. Divorce can shake your confidence, not just emotionally, but financially, and in those moments, you deserve a guidance that brings clarity instead of fear. Hi, I’m Marguerita Cheng, certified Financial Planner, retirement income certified professional, certified Divorce Financial Analyst, and CEO of Blue Ocean Global Wealth.
I help women going through divorce gain clarity, confidence, and control over their personal finances so they can make decisions that truly support their future. At Blue Ocean Global Wealth, we focus on financial planning first because accessing competent ethical advice. Should not depend on the size of your investment portfolio.
Every woman deserves to feel financially confident, empowered, and resilient, especially during a life transition as significant as divorce. Visit blue Ocean global wealth.com to learn more about how financial planning can [00:19:00] help you navigate divorce with greater clarity and peace of mind. Now back to our show.
Maggie: Yeah. Homes are a big asset, and we have seen people who didn’t know there’s, like, a second lien on the house or something of that nature. But yeah, it’s just gathering that information right away because the timing’s impossible to time your divorce with the market with everything else, with kids getting back into school or whatever it may be.
I mean, it’s impossible, literally. And so you’re working with the best that you got. But gathering that information is so essential, and we tell women that all the time. I mean, it’s information that you should know, no matter if you think you wanna get divorced or not, right? It’s just in case your partner dies, it’s important to
know or anything like that.
And so both of you are mediators, which is very different than going kind of the legal route of divorce. So can you share a little bit more, like, why people might choose mediation, what this process kind of looks like? ‘Cause yeah, it’s very different, and I feel like everyone always goes, “I’m gonna get divorced.
I’m gonna go to an attorney.”
Alex & Amanda: Exactly. And there’s a time and place- Yes … for [00:20:00] attorneys, right? And so we often work in conjunction with them, but we are sort of doing the brunt of it, right? Yeah. So we’re doing the heavy lifting, exactly. And one reason why people choose, often choose mediation over going the, like legal negotiation, litigation route is the cost.
So our services are significantly less than hiring a lawyer. If you do hire a lawyer and then decide to go towards a court involvement, you’re looking at potentially six figures, right? And that is not something to, to laugh at. So the cost is one reason. What’s another one? Well, I was gonna say, even just on the topic of our last conversation, one of the things I really pride myself in as a mediator is creativity.
So you’ve got this home. Okay, it’s not worth as much as you thought it was. What are some creative out-of-the-box solutions other than just one of you buys the other out or you put it on the open market? Sorry, so sad. You know, what are you gonna do? Mm-hmm. What about renting it out? Is there an ability to create a basement [00:21:00] apartment?
Is there– You know, you both move out and you rent it until the market is better. Now you’re shared on title still. Is that appropriate for your relationship? You know, there’s lots to consider, but there are so many creative solutions. Mm-hmm.
And I find typically when you go to a lawyer, an attorney, it’s really more black and white.
It’s really quite just like, “Well, this is what the law says, so here’s what we’re gonna do.” Whereas we kind of play in the sandbox of the law saying, “Here’s what at minimum we’re gonna have to do, but let’s think about what we could do.” And if you have a couple that’s still really willing to work together, and this is again where I really advocate for the children, what’s in the best interest of the kids?
For you to sell this asset, which could go up $100,000 by next year when the markets are better and there’s not a war? Or do you need to sell it today and invest that money into something and rent a place? Do you need to buy a place straight away? Well, it’s not a good time to sell, but it could actually be a good time to buy, so what does that look like?
So really having those fulsome conversations, and as Amanda said, because we cost less per hour, and because that cost is [00:22:00] shared between the two parties, so we’re really 50%, we can take the time to really get a good sense of what do these people actually need? What do their children need? What do they need for retirement?
What do they need for tomorrow? And help them wrap their heads around it so that they’re truly able to make an informed decision. Because w- as mediators, we put the onus on the couple. They’re making the choices for their family. This is not– We don’t act as an arbitrator, as a judge, saying, “Here’s what we’ve decided is appropriate for you guys.”
We’re saying, “You decide. You know what’s best for your family. You know what you need. How can we support that?” So that’s kind of why I’m extremely passionate about it. It is much more cost-effective, it’s much more time-efficient, and it puts the power into the people, into the divorcing parties, as opposed to a third party exterior.
It also teaches them how to handle conflict. So if you have two lawyers who are adversarial, if you have a conflict, what do you do? I’m calling my lawyer, they’re gonna write a, an expensive letter or they’re [00:23:00] gonna put in something to the court. That’s how conflict is dealt with.
That’s not how we handle it, right?
We are teaching our parent that we’re working with how to handle conflict now, but also how to handle it five years from now. Future. Right? So it doesn’t have to escalate, and that to me is an invaluable part of mediation, is learning that, okay, we have an issue. These are the remedies that we have in place to, to deal with them, and then if we don’t, what happens?
So just that education, that learning that– It’s a new relationship that you’re building, right? So whatever, how con- however contentious the marriage was or the breakup was, if you have kids, you now need to co-parent in some capacity, and you’re gonna have to get along for s- for the purposes of raising those kids.
Yeah. You move from a romantic partnership to a business partnership. You’re in the business of raising your children. And so if we can teach you the skills to support that so you don’t need to keep engaging, so you don’t need to keep going to your lawyer, so you don’t need to keep going to court that’s really the gift that keeps on giving.
Maggie: And we love to set a good example for our children. I mean, that [00:24:00] shows a great way of like, ” Your dad and I can even communicate. You and your brother can communicate,” whatever it may be. Like, we can all communicate. But also, I mean, yeah, when they keep ri- I mean, I’ve seen those couples that just, “I’m gonna go to my lawyer.”
I’m like, wow, you guys are just ranking up fees all the time.
Like, you must have a lot of disposable income if that’s all going to the attorney. And can I be your attorney?
Alex & Amanda: Right? I love when I have couples that just… Well, they’ll threaten that. You know, things aren’t going their way. “I’m going to court.” Yeah. And I go, “Okay, that’s so great. So instead of us planning for your children’s university or college, we could just hand that money over to your lawyer so they could pay for their kids’ university or college.
That’s a great strategy. Like, come on, people. And I know it’s emotional. I totally- It’s the emotional- … empathize … part of it. And- But that’s where We get to be the experts to say, “You know, here’s your reality check. Here’s what this really looks like. Plus, you’re going to court in two years, so in the interim, let’s, like, keep working together,”
you know?
Right. You can just keep going. Right. Exactly.
Maggie: And so how many, like, hours would you say people kind of spend with you? Like, I mean, to get to court it [00:25:00] takes, like, two years, you’re saying. So it sounds like it’s much quicker with you. And then who else do you have on your team when you go through mediation, as
we love a team
Alex & Amanda: questions. We love a team. We love a team. We saw that on your website, and I was like- Yeah … “Oh, yeah. These are our girls.” They have a roster. These are our gals. Team-wise, we have mortgage specialists, we have real estate agents, we have therapists- Yeah … we have family lawyers, we have financial analysts.
So all of these people that we can bring in if they’re needed. And in terms of timeline- Well, I was gonna say, and all that specialize, that niche out to divorce. Yes. So your financial analyst is divorce-specific. Your mortgage broker is divorce-specific so that they can get you a mortgage without a signed separation agreement, right?
So we really build a team that are so niched to specifically divorce because it’s too much. It’s too much.
Maggie: the loans in divorce for a house,
so nuanced. I’m like, wow, The more you learn- the less you know.
Alex & Amanda: It’s so true. That’s such a great line. Where are you living? Let’s go. So true. I love it. Yeah. [00:26:00] I would say my average files are, like, 25 hours. . Yeah. So- That’s with kids. That is with children. With children, yeah. Yeah. That’s, that adds a whole new complexity, right? Your separation agreement is basically 50% parenting plan and then 50% financials.
So if you don’t have the kids, obviously it’s much more expedient. Yeah.
Maggie: Yeah, that makes sense. And so if we get through the process, and now we’re talking about women navigating life post-divorce, how do you suggest to rebuilding kind of that self-trust around, you know, spending habits and anything else kind of just going on in life?
Alex & Amanda: You always were capable. Yeah. But that’s what I wanna tell women, is that even if someone, maybe it was your former partner, told you weren’t or told you you spent too much or didn’t know anything about money, that’s bullsh*t. You’re a capable woman and you can figure it out and do it your, yourself. And that’s sort of the message that I want women to walk away with, and it’s often the message that I will tell my clients. Yes, it’s overwhelming. It seems overwhelming right now. It seems like it’s insurmountable. How are you gonna manage budgeting and paying your taxes and paying your bills?[00:27:00]
But women have done it before, they’re doing it now, and you will get through it too.
Maggie: Yeah, Yeah, I love that. I feel like we’ve already touched on a lot of great topics so far. Is there anything that we haven’t touched on that you want to make sure our audience knows about in the divorce process or just the mediation process in particular?
Alex & Amanda: I think don’t be afraid to reach out to professionals because you cannot do it alone, and just because your neighbor went through it or your best friend went through it and you’re like, “Oh, well, I have all the support I need because they went through it too,” it’s not the same as hiring an expert.
It’s just not, because we might give you alternatives that you, just like Alex was saying about the house, that you might not have thought of. And so the creativity that we bring to the table is really unique. And so don’t do it alone. Don’t… You know, and really watch where you get your information from.
Make sure it’s vetted. Make sure it’s an expert, and their mother is going to have an opinion about your divorce, so be careful who you listen to. Yeah. And a social media page that’s all about this- Yeah.
that may not be grounded in anything [00:28:00] factual. Just be, yeah. Yeah.
Build a team. I think you, you hit the nail on the head with the last question. Divorce touches, I think, literally every industry. Like, if you look at how many decisions are involved- Oh my gosh … in ending a marriage and disentangling a partnership, it touches everything. And so you can’t possibly be an expert in everything.
And don’t expect if you’re hiring only a lawyer that they’re gonna be the experts in everything. Mm-hmm. Don’t expect that if you go to a therapist that they’re gonna be an expert in your finances. Like, you do need a whole team. And to be clear, I know that there are so many barriers to entry. Experts cost you
a lot of money. you’ve gotta think long term, because the mistakes you make today could actually cost you so much more in the future. It’s worth the investment of building out your team, ensuring people that are really, really experts in that field have your back, because you could spend your lifetime trying to learn all of this and still not know, [00:29:00] because you’re still emotionally entangled in these decisions.
So yeah. I really want to empower- your listeners to say, yes, A, you can do it, and B, the way you do it is information gathering. Go get those financial statements, go talk to people, go ask those questions. Do not feel ashamed if you don’t know, because you don’t know. And that’s okay. You can’t live in the past going, “Oh, if only.”
All you can do is what’s best for you tomorrow. And so first step is get that information, get a sense of what this looks like,
and then take a step forward.
Maggie: Yeah, I love that. And when I say, yeah, lawyers,, they’re great at the law.
They’re great at the law, you know? But we all have our strong suits, and that’s why we hire a trainer at the gym, and that’s why then we hire a nutritionist, right? You know, and then you have your doctor. They all do different things,
and they work really nicely together.
Alex & Amanda: Exactly. Yeah. Exactly.
Maggie: So after everything you’ve seen, what does financial freedom look like [00:30:00] for you and look like for women coming out of divorce?
Alex & Amanda: Yeah. I love that. I see like my clients a year later or six months later, just down the road, having that autonomy, that financial autonomy of like, if I wanna take a trip or if I wanna take a loan or if I wanna pay for something, I get to decide that.
And that financial freedom for some women who have been in financially controlling relationships, which we know there are lots of, can be completely, you know, just…
transformational. It really is. Yeah. It really is, is making those decisions yourself, even if they’re not the best decisions, even if you need to bring in a financial expert to help you. But it’s your choice. Yeah. I think financial freedom, really it’s the freedom part that I wanna hone in on, because what it looks like is you don’t have to run things by someone again.
And most of us got married really, really young, right? ‘Cause you are told you have to if you wanna procreate, you gotta start young. And so we don’t even really have a [00:31:00] sense of our finances when we’re getting married, and then we’re expected to, after years of partnership, sometimes decades and years of, “Okay, you got that, I got this.”
Like, you have to divide and conquer ’cause there’s too much. It’s too much for people. And so you set yourselves up for this, and then trying to walk it back afterwards is so tricky. It’s so tricky. But yeah, that financial freedom of I wanna paint my walls. I wanna like, I wanna go on a trip. It’s so ma- and it’s not all great.
I, I wanna take it a loan or I wanna go back to school. These things cost money also. And you might have to make sacrifices. Indeed. Absolutely. You might not have the same- Standard of living … standard of living with two incomes and one. That might come from sacrifices, but these are still decisions that you get to make.
Yeah. And I think that’s it. What do you want? Like, so I always make my clients write a letter to their future self as if it’s today. Like, “Dear Alex, today I woke up and I looked out my window at the beautiful lake,” or whatever, right? Like, imagine what your life looks like because then you can work back from that.
[00:32:00] If it’s not like a palatial escape in Tuscany, well then we don’t need to be trying to get that much money for you. If it’s just freedom, if it’s just autonomy and you just want your own space to feel safe and secure and raise your kids, well then that’s very different. So let’s work on a budget.
What does that life look like? What’s that gonna cost you? Do you need to go back to work? What’s that gonna cost you to go back to school, to take a lower paying job? There, you have to factor all of it in, and I think if you can begin to imagine what your life looks like post-divorce, then you can actually design that life through the process of getting divorced.
Maggie: I love that. I don’t think enough people even sit and just think of what they want their life to look like. So taking that time, taking that moment, and man, just living alone sometimes, I could just be in a square box and just be just fine.
Alex & Amanda: I know. Sometimes I think back to, like, my first apartment after university and, like, eating ramen and on some used futon. I’m like, “Oh, that was a good time.” It was a great time in my life.
Maggie: You don’t need a lot of money all the time to
feel rich in your own [00:33:00] way.
And so if people wanna work with you both, definitely they can tune in to the Dirty Laundry Divorce podcast. What are other great ways they can connect with you, work with you, all those good things?
Alex & Amanda: So because we’re in Canada, our mediation services are really mostly for Canadian, but we do a lot of divorce coaching. Yeah. So if you need someone to answer those questions that you don’t wanna ask your lawyer, not legal advice, but legal information come to us. We can be your cheerleaders.
We also can help communicate with your ex-spouse if you want us to write emails or filter through texts or filter through emails. That’s a big component of what we do as well. But you can reach us on our website, so midtownmediation.com and foresttownmediation.com. You can reach us there and also just reach out through the pod.
Yeah. DM us. We’re happy to answer questions, connect, phone, set up a call, whatever you need.
Maggie: Awesome. Reading through those texts, how juicy.
Alex & Amanda: Yeah. Oh, yeah. It’s, those are fun to filter.
Maggie: Yeah.
Let me get in there.
Alex & Amanda: I know, right? I think there’s, like, a little bit of like, masochism in this job too- Yeah … to, like- Screw [00:34:00] that person. Yes. Let’s learn all the dirty laundry, but let’s support it so the kids don’t ever know- Yes … and aren’t
impacted by it. Yes.
Maggie: Well, thank You both for coming on today and sharing your expertise, bringing this great energy to divorce, as I know it’s not always a fun process, but having great people on your team like you both, having these creative ideas, it can really be a game changer.
And I’m still just kinda stuck on the fact that you haven’t had anyone who’s gotten divorced and regretted it. So just something to think about.
So yeah, thank you both, and until next time, be financially fearless
Outro: You’ve been listening to Women Money, the shit we don’t talk about. Now it’s time to take what you’ve learned and make bold moves towards financial independence. Stay in the know by joining our newsletter for exclusive tools, resources, and updates that keep you financially fearless. Head to PurseStrings. co and sign up today. Need a financial professional who gets it? Turn to PurseStrings Curated Directory, your go to resource for financial experts who know how to put you first. [00:35:00] Love this episode? Leave us a review and help us empower even more women to own their financial power. Until next time, be financially fearless.
Divorce 101- From ‘I Do’ to ‘Do I Go?’ with Lisa Miller
“Your nervous system will always choose a familiar hell, rather than an unfamiliar heaven.”
Whew. We’ve all been in this dilemma.
This week on Women & Money The Shit We Don’t Talk About, we’re joined by Lisa Miller @Lisamiller.coach, relationship and divorce coach who helps people decide whether they wanna stay or go in their marriage and then supports them through the entire process, regardless if they stay or go.
And let us tell you, nothing was off the table. Lisa shares her own story of being stuck in the should I stay should I go phase for years, raising three boys, feeling depleted, and realizing something had to change.
Lisa reminds us that we don’t need catastrophe to justify leaving. We don’t need abuse. We don’t need addiction. Sometimes the truth is simply this. You’re not happy.
And clarity is powerful. If you’ve ever asked yourself ‘Do I stay or do I go?’ this episode will hit home.
🎧 Listen to the full episode now to learn how to trust your gut, regulate your nervous system, and make decisions from clarity instead of fear.
If your goal is to preserve values & wealth to pass on security and intention to future generations, don’t miss our next Money Talks with Legacy Planning Attorney and Purse Strings Approved Pro, Kathryn Gioia. She’ll be sharing strategies & legacy planning to support all of life’s seasons. Click here to registerfor FREE and bring your questions!
This episode is supported by Marguerita Cheng, CFP®, RICP®, CDFA®, CEO of Blue Ocean Global Wealth. Marguerita works with women navigating divorce to bring clarity, confidence, and control back into their financial lives. At Blue Ocean Global Wealth, the focus is on helping women understand their options, make informed decisions, and feel empowered about their financial future, especially during moments that feel uncertain or overwhelming. If you’re going through divorce and want support that’s clear, grounded, and centered on your long term wellbeing, you can learn more and connect with Marguerita at www.blueoceanglobalwealth.comand follow her on LinkedIn, Instagram, Facebook, and Youtube.
Disclosure:
Securities offered by Registered Representatives and Advisory products and services offered by Investment Advisory Representatives through Private Client Services, member FINRA/SIPC, and a Registered Investment Advisor. Private Client Services and Blue Ocean Global Wealth are unaffiliated entities.
Follow & Connect with Purse Strings
Stay connected for more real talk about women, money, divorce, and financial independence:
Barbara Provost, EdD and Maggie Nielsen, MBA are the co-founders of Purse Strings, a national platform helping women make confident financial decisions by connecting them with vetted financial professionals who truly understand women’s lives and money needs. Purse Strings connects women across the U.S. with vetted financial professionals who specialize in supporting women through divorce, money transitions, and financial independence.
Full Episode Transcript
(This transcript was generated using AI, so please excuse any misspellings or errors)
Barb:[00:00:00] Maggie, have you ever heard of a divorce or relationship coach?
Maggie: Oh yeah.
Barb: Do you know anybody who’s used em?
Barb: Shall I stay or shall I go?
Maggie: I was on the gram. I followed this other coach who was talking about how there are some decisions that we’ll just go back and forth and back and forth and back and forth, and it’s not like a, it’s not like a week, it’s not like a month. It’s like years, and it’s always if I had more information or if I had this, it’s always shit, yes, no, yes, no.
Barb: But you don’t wanna pull the trigger.
Maggie: You don’t, I don’t think you wanna believe that, and sometimes I think it’s ’cause you might wanna please others or you don’t want it to be that way.
Barb: I think some people are afraid.
Maggie: I get that
Barb: Especially if it’s cultural or from their family or something like that.
Maggie: religion is a
Barb: Yeah. Usually on 2020 or Dateline, they kill their spouse so they don’t have to divorce ’em ’cause it’s against their religion. It’s the craziest thing.
Maggie: Then you might get some money too on that life insurance policy.
Barb: That’s true.
Maggie: I think that’s an easier option than paying an attorney. Just sharing.
Barb: Yeah, [00:01:00] but we are not recommending that.
Maggie: No, we’re recommending a coach to help you decide if you stay or if you go, or a therapist or actually anything else besides murder.
Barb: But when you’re in a long-term relationship, you have children and
Barb: you’re not sure you know if that relationship is working for you or not. And it’s a big decision, a really big decision to determine, do I stay in this and push forward even though I’m not quite sure about it, or I just cut my ties and move on?
Barb: Because when you divorce, it’s a huge rippling effect, right? So sometimes you need a coach to help you think that through.
Maggie: And I think we’ve talked a lot about this due the financial aspect, right? Of living alone and earning an income and all those different things, but, there’s also a huge part of it that’s not even financial. It’s just your emotion, if you walk past a person every time, they just, oh, drive you nuts.
Maggie: It’s not a good hope for you to live in.
Barb: I [00:02:00] know it sounds awful, right? And then people have separate bedrooms or they don’t even live together and they’re still married. But really, what’s a healthy outcome for yourself that has to do with your own internal desires for how you wanna live out the rest of your life in a happy, really fun way to live a life that’s full of your own choices and all.
Maggie: So we’re excited to have Lisa on the show today, who helps people decide, do I stay or do I go?
Barb: And let’s see how she does it.
Gloria Steinem once said, we will never solve the feminization of power until we solve the masculinity of wealth. Barbara Provost and Maggie Nielsen are the team at purse strings that will help you navigate the ins and outs of financial independence so that you can be financially fearless. This is women in money, [00:03:00] the shit we don’t talk about.
Maggie: All righty. Today we have Lisa Miller on the show. We are excited to have you here. I know you just said you’re from sunny California, so you’re starting off in a warmer spot.
Maggie: But before we dive in today, can you start by just kind of introducing yourself to the audience, who you are and what you do?
Lisa: Absolutely. Well first thank you so much for having me, love being here.
Lisa: My name is Lisa Miller. I am a relationship divorce coach, so I help people really decide whether they wanna stay or go in their marriage and then help them throughout the entire process, regardless if they stay or go
Lisa: ’cause there’s a lot of healing that needs to be done. There’s a lot of clarity. I have my proven clarity framework that I use with all of my clients to get them really, like the goal is to be happy. If you’re happy, I’m happy. Everyone’s happy whether you stay or go. So that’s what I do.
Maggie: I just keep thinking of the song. Should I
Maggie: stay or should I
Lisa: I think of it daily.
Maggie: I bet. I mean, I would just be living in my [00:04:00] head.
Barb: how did you get to this profession, Lisa?
Lisa: got divorced. That’s, that’s how we started.
Lisa: really I was in the, should I stay? Should I go phase for Gosh, like way too long. And did all the therapy and was kind of like banging my head against the walls of like. I just like
Lisa: can’t get unstuck and I had three little kids. I was with my ex-husband for 20 years, married 14 of those years, I don’t know how I’m gonna ever get outta this. And then, years of therapy, couples therapy, all the things. And like we ended up getting divorced and I ended up working with a life coach who literally transformed my life and I was like, I wanna help people do that. So I left my career. I worked in the entertainment industry for 20 years,
Lisa: left that, I became a certified life coach and have been helping men and women. People think I just primarily work with women and that is a huge part of my clientele. But I do help men too, because I go through the same things as women do.
Maggie: And so what do you think was such [00:05:00] the difference about going to therapy and then going to a life coach and having that be kind of the change? Because so often we’re just like, oh, issue therapy. And so where would like a coach, you know, be different or how is that different for you?
Lisa: So I think actually like when you’re trying to decide if you wanna stay or go, like life coaching, finding a relationship coach, a marriage coach, divorce coach, whatever you relate with is a huge, huge difference. Therapy, really the modality It’s a beautiful modality.
Lisa: I did it for years. My brother’s a therapist. You are focusing on your past to hear you today it’s called talk therapy for a reason. You do a lot of talking, right? Most of my clients come to me after they’re done talking. They’re like, I need some tools. Coaching is more tool-oriented. It’s more meeting where you are and taking you where you wanna go.
Lisa: So it’s a lot more goal oriented. So when you’re in a place of like, I don’t know what to do, you need tools, you need like, okay, give me some concrete A, B, C. Like, how do I get to this place that I’m trying to go? Everyone who comes into [00:06:00] my world is like, I’m done being stuck, right? Talking isn’t gonna get you there.
Maggie: That’s fair. So when you looked back, what was the moment where you realized that you were done spinning your wheels and you needed relationship clarity that actually worked?
Lisa: So I, I have three boys.
Lisa: We got separated before we got divorced. My kids were nine, eight, and five.
Lisa: And I clearly like, remember looking at my youngest, he was like, mommy, like I don’t know if you guys have boys. My son was like, I wanna play trash tracks with you. And like all my kids were very Trash trucks. Like they had like pretend trash truck and like, you know, whatever. Everything in me wanted to play with him, but like, I had no energy. I was like so depleted. I was like, I need something different. I was like on a hamster wheel and like, I
Lisa: was like, like get me off this same, get me off this ride.
Lisa: I don’t wanna be on this ride anymore. And so I started like doing research and I was started following different kinds of coaching and I reached out to one I really resonated with. And like that’s where the clarity started.
Barb: Wow. [00:07:00] It’s interesting because, does love have to do with it because sometimes people leave because they’re not in love anymore.
Lisa: Oh sure.
Lisa: I mean, what’s love got to do with it. Now I have that song in my mind.
Barb: I know, I know. But it’s like, shall I stay? Shall I go? I mean, some people are like, I gotta go, you know? But maybe they’re still in love with them. I don’t know.
Lisa: Yeah, I mean, I tell all my clients if there’s just like an ember of love, just an ember, you can like get it to a full fledged flame, right? A lot of people don’t know if they’re still in love or if they just love the person because it’s what, who they know it’s their best friend. It’s the father of their children. So that’s part of the work we do is to find out like, am I still in love with this person or am I just staying because of my kids?
Barb: Right.
Lisa: I mean, love has to do with it, but I, but I would say, it’s just one part of it, right? It’s also, you need really good communication. You need connection, you need safety. Like, it’s just not about love. I mean, if it was just about love, like, you know, we’d just stay with our best [00:08:00] friends forever.
Barb: That’s true. So when women come to you and they say, I love him, but something doesn’t feel right, what’s the first real truth bomb that you give ’em?
Lisa: Are you in love with him or do you just love him? Do you still wanna have sex with him? Do you still desire him or does he walk by you and you’re like, please don’t touch me.
Maggie: I could see how that would not be successful.
Barb: That would be a sign.
Let’s take a quick pause to hear from this week’s episode sponsor. Divorce can shake your confidence, not just emotionally, but financially, and in those moments, you deserve a guidance that brings clarity instead of fear. Hi, I’m Marguerita Cheng, certified Financial Planner, retirement income certified professional, certified Divorce Financial Analyst, and CEO of Blue Ocean Global Wealth.
I help women going through divorce gain clarity, confidence, and control over their personal finances so they can make decisions that truly support [00:09:00] their future. At Blue Ocean Global Wealth, we focus on financial planning first because accessing competent ethical advice. Should not depend on the size of your investment portfolio.
Every woman deserves to feel financially confident, empowered, and resilient, especially during a life transition as significant as divorce. Visit blue Ocean global wealth.com to learn more about how financial planning can help you navigate divorce with greater clarity and peace of mind. Now back to our show.
Lisa: but people are still confused even in that moment. ’cause you’re like, I want to desire my husband, I want to desire my wife, but I don’t. Can I get it back?
Barb: Do you know why that happens? Why the desire goes away?
Lisa: Oh God, years of resentment. You know, feeling alone, years of trying to be heard seen, and it falls on deaf ears. Just years of like getting [00:10:00] into a groove of like, I mean, it usually happens after kids, right? So you’re like in this place of, you’re in a pattern. The pattern needs to be interrupted, broken, changed.
Lisa: And it takes work. It takes like, ’cause usually what happens is like people come to like a standstill. Well, I’ve been asking for this for years and he hasn’t changed. And the other person’s like, but I have changed, and I’ve made changes. The changes aren’t what I’m asking for. And they’re just like, fighting. Right. Both people have to meet each other in the middle, and both people have to want it, right? Both people have to want to make the relationship, the marriage work beyond just for the kids.
Maggie: And so it’s Valentine’s season and dating can kind of feel weird right now between politics, values and the way the world is going. Women are like, I’m not wasting my time. You know what I mean? And so what are three questions women should ask early on, like the first couple of dates to vet someone with that value and that mindset.
Lisa: Three questions to ask. So [00:11:00] I was a single woman for nine years. I mean, I dated a lot. I had a lot of interesting relationships and all the things. I was a professional dater. I’m now engaged. So I’m like, we’re done doing that, but thank you.
Lisa: But I think in the beginning, in the first three dates, what you really wanna get to know is if you are aligned. So like what are your values? Like if you’re looking for, and I hear this probably daily, I’m looking for depth. I’m looking for deeper than surface conversations. What does that mean? Like what makes you happy? What are you looking for long term? What excites you? And make sure like you guys are on the same page with those things.
Lisa: Otherwise, you’re gonna end up probably very disappointed.
Maggie: Yeah, tough because I’m on the dating world. And a lot of people out there are like, I’m an open book. Ask me anything. You know? And then you’ll ask him stuff. And it’s very like, I want, you know, just very like vague things. Like, I wanna be happy, I wanna be with someone I love, like I want a family. It’s like, so do the rest of us. You know? Like what makes it [00:12:00] different.
Lisa: Yeah. Like, go deeper with that. Like what does happiness look like to you? I promise you, like if you answered that and I answer that, it’s gonna be very different answers.
Lisa: Right. But like, can we meet in the middle? Like, is your version of happy, does that excite me? I’m like, oh, like that’s a good answer, right? Or are you like, eh, I mean, I went out with a guy and he was like telling me like his hobbies and I was like, that’s my nightmare. I was like, no, like, this isn’t gonna work. Right. So you can, you can vet people pretty early on if you ask the right questions for sure.
Barb: Yeah, that’s interesting. I remember actually, I’m married now, but when I was dating this guy said, I see nothing better than just hooking my car up to a what do you call that?
Maggie: Whatever it is, you don’t want it.
Barb: Mobile, whatever. And, you know, going out into the woods and just spending days there. And I’m like. Gotta
Lisa: Yeah. No. No.
Barb: I’m like four season. Yes. Woods. No.
Lisa: Yeah. And here’s the truth. Like there’s no right or wrong, but like, you gotta make sure you’re not just going [00:13:00] after ’em ’cause they’re hot. Like that’s not gonna last either.
Barb: No, yeah. That’s funny, Maggie. Hooking up to anything. Yeah, I’d be out of there.
Maggie: I heard a car and I was like, she’s out. There’s no car in her world. Like those people who do like the car shows or like all pull out their cars that are like the same kind and are all in a parking lot, like they do that kind of local in my house. And I’m like, that would never be my Saturday afternoon.
Maggie: Never would it ever, you know, and there’s some things where you’re like, I’d be open to learning, exploring. I never have, but it’s not a no. And then there’s other things we’re just, nah. Nah
Lisa: Yeah. And you have to know your limits.
Maggie: Right. And so for couples who come and they want to make it work or they want to, you know, fall in love again, what are some steps to kind of help make that happen?
Maggie: How do you kind of coach ’em through this Who
Lisa: So there’s a few things. Yeah. Like one it, it can’t be one sided, so both people have to wanna be. In this marriage still. So my recommendation’s always that each of them have their own coach or therapist, whatever they prefer, [00:14:00] and then they have one together. So they’re, they’re working on themselves and then they’re working on the actual relationship, the union, right. So that, that’s step one. And then two, they have to keep doing bits of connection. Right. So start small. Like, I mean, what’s crazy is a lot of people come to me and they haven’t had sex with their partner for years, and you’re like, okay, so you’re not gonna just jump into bed with them. But like, start with like holding hands, looking in each other’s eyes, like maybe like sending like a sweet text throughout the day. Like all those things usually aren’t happening and they seem so like, fundamental and like elementary, but you know, again, like there, there’s a reason why they’re where they are. So start small like that, those small bits of connection, will start to build trust between the two of them. And then it’s like, okay, go on dates. Maybe don’t actually drink, right? Like, just like be sober during the dates. See if you enjoy each other’s company. No talking about work, no talking about kids. Like just start like is there a [00:15:00] friendship even there still, right? And then you can slowly like work your way up to more intimacy, more fun.
Barb: So, how long do you work with a client that you typically know they’re gonna go down one road together or they’re not?
Lisa: I never make that decision for them. That’s always up to them. But my programs are all four, or seven months to start and then once they kind of complete that, then we decide together. I wanna keep going. I’ll be honest, within those four or seven months,
Lisa: 90% of all of them get like the clarity. That doesn’t mean, they act on it, that that’s
Lisa: a whole different story. Right. So it starts like that.
Maggie: And so a lot of us settle kind of for comfort or avoidance. So how do you help women get curious about their nervous system? Kind of instead of just shutting down when it gets uncomfortable, ’cause that’s kind of the easier route.
Lisa: So your nervous system will always choose a familiar hell, rather than an unfamiliar heaven. So [00:16:00] learning about your nervous system, learning how to regulate your nervous system is one of the most powerful gifts you can give yourself. That’s a huge part of my program of just like, okay, like let’s tune in. Trusting your intuition, trusting your heart what it’s saying, how it’s leading you, that’s also really important. Knowing it’s okay to say no. Right. As, as women, we often have the good girl mentality. We can’t say no, we might get in trouble. So we get very like, stuck in like, well, this seems good enough, right? Like, on paper he’s a, you know, he makes good money. He’s a good provider. He seems like he’d be a good partner or a good dad. Like, so, like, ugh, like, like, you know, I should stay. But if your intuition screaming at you like, eh, like, as women, like we need to learn to listen to that even as men, right? Again, taking off the judgment, taking off the sh I always say there’s no shitting in my practice.
Lisa: We don’t should, right? Like, there is [00:17:00] no right or wrong, there’s just what’s gonna make you happy. If you truly like, focus on that, you’re not gonna lead yourself astray like your heart’s, your North Star. Right. So like learning how to trust that, which a lot of us have shut down is like, that’s magical.
Barb: It’s interesting that you say a lot of us have shut that down. I think there’s also pressure from outside forces that are kind of like, he’s a good guy, you know, he makes good money and what’s wrong? I don’t get it.
Lisa: Mm-hmm.
Lisa: I mean, absolutely. A lot of my clients are staying with a good guy because they’re a good dad. Look like they’re showing up for you. You have a good life. Like, why would you want anything else? And like inside, you’re slowly dying. It’s like, how do you trust that? Like what you’re feeling is enough, right? And the truth is, it’s enough because you’re not in love anymore. That’s a good enough reason. We don’t need them to beat us. We don’t need them to have an addiction. We don’t need them to cheat on us. If [00:18:00] the marriage has expired, it’s expired. And like we have to give ourselves grace and love and compassion to just be like, I’m not happy in this, I know I deserve to be happy. And by the way, so, so does your partner.
Maggie: Yeah, it is kind of, well, some people have it worse, so it’s not that bad, and it’s like, well, it doesn’t have to be the absolute worst to be qualified, you know?
Lisa: Absolutely. Yeah. It just, it has to be true for you, right? So, it’s getting in touch with what is your truth and being okay with that. Being like, okay, like. And, and it, it’s a process and it takes time. And you have, it’s like I always say, baby steps to the bigger goal of like really knowing which way to go.
Lisa: And like, I’ve saved many marriages in my time. I am not pro divorced, by any means. Like that was the right decision for me and my family. That’s not always the right decision. Again, there’s like an ember of love, like by all means. Like see that out, right.
Lisa: I’m also a big believer you should like cross all your T’s, dot all your I’s like you wanna make sure you have like turned over every stone before you walk out that [00:19:00] door.
Lisa: You don’t wanna go off of everyone else’s judgments.
Maggie: Right, and so for those who are like, don’t know much about getting more in tune with their nervous system and listening into it, what are like a couple or a small practice that they could do to start tuning into their nervous system. Just some easy ones that listeners can start implementing.
Lisa: So like nervous system regulation, like box breathing is probably the easiest, most common one, right? So it’s like hold at the top for four, breathe out for four, hold for four. So you’re like making a box. Right. That will bring you back into your body, but the part of your intuition is like, where are you feeling it? We all feel things in different places. If you’re into yoga, it’s like your chakras, right? So it’s like your, your heart, your your tummy, your throat. Those are like probably the three most common. So like, if you’re triggered, if you’re like being dysregulated in some way, tune into the energy in your body.
Lisa: There is an epicenter, like I feel almost everything and like, depending on what it is, it would either be like, I’ll get like knots in my tummy [00:20:00] or my chest will get really tight, right? I mean, I’ve been doing this a really long time, so like I’m super in tune with my body. Like I feel it immediately and I’m like, okay.
Lisa: And like, depending on what I’m doing, like either I’ll do some box breathing, energy needs to move at all times. You don’t want to have stuck energy. So anything like, if you can go on a run, go on a run. If you can go on a walk, go on a walk. If you’re stuck in the snow and you can’t leave your house, throw a dance party, right?
Lisa: You can even go on a drive, put music on really loud and like belt it out. That will like pour it out of you. Another beautiful tool is journaling, like getting your thoughts out on paper is an amazing way to move energy, get into nature. Put your feet in the sand, in the dirt, in the grass. Notice your senses. Those are all ways to regulate yourself.
Barb: Interesting. Any advice for women who are navigating the dating world so that they don’t get into these relationships that may not serve them?
Lisa: Trust your gut, right? Like really, like lean in and [00:21:00] here’s the thing.
Lisa: I would say the first six months anyone’s gonna wear a mask. You are, I am, we all are. We’re human, right? So we’re gonna show our best self. Go slow. Go slow. Like, don’t, like, and I’m not saying like, you know, don’t go have fun, but like, just like know that like you’re seeing the very best version of them right now.
Lisa: Some people can get to you wearing a mask, right? Your best protection is to go slow. Don’t lose all your friends. Don’t stop doing all your hobbies like still be you and still date them and like maybe like date a couple other people, like while you’re dating them until like, you know, you guys get to a place of, okay, it’s just you and I.
Lisa: But then still go slow. Like I would say the whole first year, just realize like you’re still just getting to know that person. That’s your best production.
Maggie: Yeah. It really is having, I mean, I think about myself. Yeah, of course you’re gonna put your best foot forward and have all of that. [00:22:00] You can’t blame anyone there, of course, you wanna show all your good sides. And so it is kind of like, alright, what’s underneath that? And you don’t wanna throw away everything else that you’ve had going on just for a fun surprise later.
Lisa: I’d also say like truly like ask the deeper questions, like if you’re looking for a certain kind of depth. Be vulnerable. You have nothing, I mean, when I met my fiance, like I was at a point, I was like, I was healing from a off again on again relationship. That was very long. I think I was like six months out. I was not ready to be in a relationship. I was not what I was looking for. So I was kind of at a place where I’m, like, I’m gonna ask whatever I wanna ask. I’m gonna say whatever I wanna say. Like, not in a mean way. Like I’m a very kind person, but just like I’m not gonna hold back ’cause I’m scared, maybe he won’t like me. I didn’t care. Right. And so he got the most authentic version of me. And I got to ask questions and hear answers that like, I was like, oh, like that was, it was very intriguing, right? And I was like, oh, I like that. And if it didn’t work out, I wasn’t scared because I was like, you [00:23:00] like me or you don’t like me, it’s like I’m okay either way.
Barb: We do have one question that we ask everybody who comes to our podcast, and it is. Lisa, what does financial freedom mean to you?
Lisa: Peace. I have three kids. It’s being able to send them on trips, go on trips with them, have experiences, wake up in the morning, not be worried about having to pay my bills, being like, just knowing it’s all kind of taken care of. I mean, as a single mom of three, there was definitely some hardship on that journey. There were definitely years that I wasn’t it like let’s just be honest, right? I know that feeling and then I know the feeling of being on the other side and it’s really just like waking up and being like, everything’s taken care of and I get to like decide not from a place of scarcity, but a place of like, this is what I truly want, and like, live the life you’re truly desiring.
Maggie: Yeah, it makes a lot of sense.
Maggie: So when’s the big day for the wedding.[00:24:00]
Lisa: We don’t have one yet, but it won’t be till 2027.
Maggie: Okay. good.
Lisa: Yeah. I’m not a great planner, so we’ll start planning, but I have a kid graduating high school, going off to college. I have another kid who’s in college right now. I have another kid who’s graduating junior high, going off to high school this year.
Lisa: This year was like a big year. I was like, I can’t do it this year. So we’ll do it next year.
Maggie: A lot of things going on. A lot of things going on. Well, we appreciate you coming on and sharing your expertise and really how you help women and men kind of go through this transition and decide. Which way they wanna go. So yeah, we appreciate you coming on all of course, your links will be in the show notes so people can connect with you.
Maggie: And until next time, be financially fearless.
Outro: You’ve been listening to Women Money, the shit we don’t talk about. Now it’s time to take what you’ve learned and make bold moves towards financial independence. Stay in the know by joining our newsletter for exclusive tools, resources, and updates that keep you financially fearless. Head to PurseStrings. co [00:25:00] and sign up today. Need a financial professional who gets it? Turn to PurseStrings Curated Directory, your go to resource for financial experts who know how to put you first. Love this episode? Leave us a review and help us empower even more women to own their financial power. Until next time, be financially fearless.
The Other Side of ‘I Do’: Rebuilding Money and Mindset After Divorce with Jill Kaufman
Divorce is hard enough. Money shouldn’t make it harder.
In this episode of Women & Money: The Shit We Don’t Talk About, we sit down with Jill Kaufman, a Divorce Coach, Therapist, Mediator, and Co-parenting Expert who knows firsthand how overwhelming divorce can be — emotionally and financially. After going through her own high-conflict divorce and discovering she had no credit in her own name after 20 years of marriage, Jill turned that experience into a mission: helping women navigate divorce with less chaos and more control.
If you’re a woman facing divorce, thinking about it, or rebuilding on the other side, this conversation is your guide to divorce and money, credit, co-parenting, and financial freedom.
What You’ll Learn in This Episode (Key Takeaways for Women)
Why so many women discover during divorce that they don’t have credit in their own name—and how to fix it.
The biggest money shocks during divorce, including not knowing what you truly spend each month.
How to start planning your post-divorce life, not just survive the crisis in front of you.
What every woman should know before signing any divorce papers or mediation agreements.
The difference between being an authorized user on a credit card and building your own credit history.
Practical strategies to lower conflict in co-parenting and stop getting pulled into emotional fights.
Why you don’t have to start with court and getting served—and alternative divorce processes that can save money, time, and sanity.
Jill’s personal definition of financial freedom after divorce and what it looks like in real life.
Episode Chapters
00:51 – Meet Jill Kaufman 01:30 – Financial Challenges During Divorce 06:34 – Legal Documents and Agreements 11:13 – Effective Co-Parenting Strategies 21:21 – Alternative Divorce Processes 23:35 – Definition of Financial Freedom
Women’s Divorce & Money Questions We Answer
What’s the big deal about having credit in your own name?
Jill shares how, after 20 years of marriage, she went to apply for a credit card during her divorce and was told she had no credit history. Everything had been in her husband’s name. We talk about why every woman—married, single, or divorced—needs her own credit card, in her own name, and why you don’t want to wait for a crisis to start building credit.
What are the biggest money shocks women face during divorce?
Many women don’t actually know what they spend each month. Jill explains why understanding your real spending is step one in financial planning for divorce: you can’t design your post-divorce life if you don’t know what you need to live on. We dig into tracking expenses, looking at past statements, and getting honest about housing, lifestyle, and future goals.
What should I know before signing anything in my divorce?
Jill is clear: do not sign anything—especially in mediation—without reviewing it calmly and having a professional look it over. Once you sign, it can be very hard (and expensive) to unwind. We talk about why you should:
Take agreements home
Read them line by line
Have a divorce coach or attorney flag what needs attention
Understand details like retirement accounts, timelines, and long-term obligations
How can I keep co-parenting from draining me emotionally and financially?
One of the most common mistakes Jill sees is letting your ex trigger you into emotional conversations. She explains how to shift from “ex-spouse” mode into “co-parent colleague” mode—communicating respectfully, focusing on the kids, and stepping away from heated arguments. We also talk about when email is better than text, and how to stop reacting to every message.
Do I have to go straight to court and get my spouse served?
No. Jill walks through alternative divorce paths that don’t start with a court filing and a process server at the door. Mediation, negotiation, and out-of-court agreements can often lead to an uncontested divorce, which is faster, cheaper, and less traumatic. Your attorney works for you—you’re allowed to say, “I want to do this a different way.”
What does financial freedom look like after divorce?
For Jill, financial freedom means being able to do what you love without constant money stress. For her, that’s meaningful work, time in nature, skiing and hiking in Colorado, and a life that feels like hers. For you, it might look completely different—but the episode will help you start defining it for yourself.
Jill Kaufman, LCSW, Divorce Coach, Certified Mediator, Parent Educator, specializes in helping people navigate divorce with less stress and more clarity. After surviving her own high-conflict divorce in 2012—and discovering how vulnerable she was financially—Jill refocused her career on supporting others through this major life transition.
Today, she helps women:
Understand their finances during divorce
Communicate more effectively with ex-partners
Co-parent in healthier, less reactive ways
Rebuild confidence and create a life they love on the other side of “I do”
You can connect with Jill at divorcecoachjill.com or via email at info@divorcecoachjill.com. She also runs a free Facebook community called Separation and Divorce Support Community for those going through separation and divorce.
Don’t Miss Our Next Money Talks: Protecting Your Independence Through Transition
If this episode hit home, our nextMoney Talkssession is for you. On 12/11, we’re talking about Protecting Your Independence Through Transition—whether that’s divorce, widowhood, job change, or another major life shift.
Barbara Provost, EdD and Maggie Nielsen, MBA are the co-founders of Purse Strings, a national platform helping women make confident financial decisions by connecting them with vetted financial professionals who truly understand women’s lives and money needs. Purse Strings connects women across the U.S. with vetted financial professionals who specialize in supporting women through divorce, money transitions, and financial independence.
Full Episode Transcript
(This transcript was generated using AI, so please excuse any misspellings or errors)
Maggie:[00:00:00] Did I tell you this already? That I was at a super Bowl party, when we had the Super Bowl and Kendrick, all good stuff, and I was talking to one of my girlfriends from my walk group, and she’s a nurse. She owns her own home. She’s single. She told me she doesn’t have a credit card.
She’s never had a credit card to her name. She’s like 33.
Barb: How did she get through life without a credit card?
Maggie: Her parents told her to never take on more debt than you have. She’s like, I got a house still. I was like, in awe.
Barb: How did she get credit for a house if she never had a credit card?
Maggie: don’t know. I didn’t go into it again, we were at a Super Bowl party, but I was like, you should probably get one just to build credit to have backup, blah, blah, blah.
She’s like, I keep meaning to, so I sent her, not to plug, but I sent her my Capital One, thing to get like my $150. And right then and there she signed up for a credit card. During our Super Bowl party, she’s like, I feel so relieved. I’ve always wanted to get that done. Like thanks for just literally holding her hand while she did it, like it’s on an app.
It was so easy. And I was like, [00:01:00] I got 150 bucks. Like we’re cruising.
Barb: Wow, that’s fantastic.
Maggie: I was just so surprised. I was like, who doesn’t have a credit card these days? Especially when you’re a homeowner, have a full-time job, earns good money, all this stuff. So it was pretty funny and I think about that a lot.
And so then like a week and a half later, she’s like, I got my credit card in the mail. And I was like, all right. Like, use it wisely,
Barb: Did she know how to use it?
Maggie: I think so, yeah. But everyone there was like shook, ’cause everyone else is like playing their point game or. Everything else, and everyone’s like, well use my link for my bonus, I just thought it was amazing that this woman’s like 33, had never had a credit card. But then we hear these different stories of women who have always just been married and they’re not even the authorized user on their husband’s credit card, but they’re just used like the credit card with his name on it, so they’re not building a credit score.
And I’m just always surprised as well.
Barb: Well, and so are they. They don’t even realize it. They don’t realize that they’re not building a credit score or credit history for themselves because [00:02:00] Sure, they’re using a credit card, but it’s not under their name, although their name is on it. It’s under their husband’s name.
Maggie: Which I just wanna be clear for our listeners that there’s a difference of being an authorized user and not. And if you’re not an authorized user, but you’re still using that card, that’s not helping your credit score. But if you are an authorized user, that can affect your credit score. But it can’t affect it badly if the main person’s not paying the bill.
Barb: So you wanna be careful. You want your own credit card.
Maggie: Yeah, you want your own credit card in your own name. that’s just like a Jill who we’re gonna have a conversation with was getting divorced and was trying to get a credit card and realized she had no credit to her name.
Barb: And she was married for 20 years.
Maggie: It’s crazy, but she was able to still make it happen ’cause there are a ton of options to get a credit card.
Barb: Yeah, but that was just store credit cards, so not really the ones that. You can use lots of different places like a Visa, MasterCard or something like that.
Maggie: Which aren’t usually, when you first get your credit, it’s like 500, $2,000 they give you. They’re not giving you the big books, it’s interesting. And [00:03:00] so, I’m excited to dive into this story today with Jill and how, through her divorce she got a credit card and really went and built and helped now more women with their divorce and having a successful divorce.
But I just thought that was interesting,
Barb: Yeah because she had a very tumultuous divorce. Now she’s a divorce coach.
Maggie: tumultuous.
Barb: I know.
She had a tumultuous divorce and now she’s helping women as a divorce coach and I think it’s fantastic and we’ve learned a few tips from her. So let’s dial in.
Maggie: Let’s dive in.
Gloria Steinem once said, we will never solve the feminization of power until we solve the masculinity of wealth. Barbara Provost and Maggie Nielsen are the team at purse strings that will help you navigate the ins and outs of financial independence so that you can be financially fearless. This is women in money, the shit [00:04:00] we don’t talk about.
Maggie: Jill, welcome to the podcast. We are thrilled to have you on today. Before we dive into this great conversation, could you share with our audience a bit about who you are and what you do?
Jill: Absolutely. Thank you so much for having me. So I am a licensed therapist. I’m a divorce coach. Certified mediator and a parent educator. And I’ve been working with people going through divorce for many years. I went through my own very high conflict divorce in 2012. Learned a lot and then I really focused my practice on working with people going through divorce.
Maggie: Awesome. Yeah, we hear that a lot about how people go through divorce and really wanna help other women kind of go through that process and let’s kind of take us back. I know you had a financial background, you were a therapist and you couldn’t get a credit card during your divorce, so let’s kind of like dive into that.
What did that moment teach you?
Jill: It was crazy. Yeah. When I was right outta college [00:05:00] for seven years I was in finance. And then I decided to go back and get my master’s in social work to become a therapist. But I thought I had a handle on my financial. Picture and my ex was a financial advisor, so he really did handle a lot of the finances during our marriage.
’cause I was just, doing a lot with the kids. But as we were going through divorce, I had to pay an attorney and figure out how to get money and I didn’t really want him knowing everything I was doing so. I went to the bank to try to get a credit card and I realized, they told me that, oh, you don’t have any credit, because all of the things that you had for 20 years was on my husband’s name.
So he had the credit and I couldn’t get a credit card which really it is so devastating emotionally when you’re going through this. You’re an adult, you’re raising kids and you can’t get a credit card. It was ridiculous. So I ended up finding a way to get a credit card. There are ways you can do a secured credit card, you can get credit started stores, credit cards
so there are ways [00:06:00] that you can build it up, but you don’t wanna wait until you really need it to do that. So it was crazy.
Maggie: Well, and usually those original credit cards are like two grand. They give you just a little bit just to make sure, you’ll pay it back and build that trust. Yeah.
Barb: And we see that happen a lot as women don’t realize that they’re not building their own credit. ’cause they have a credit card, but they don’t realize it’s under their husband’s name. So yeah, 20 years you’re using credit cards thinking, oh, I have credit. I’m glad that you pointed that out, that you weren’t, because it wasn’t under your name.
So take this seriously that women out there, you should all make sure you have your own credit card in your own name, and that you can check and look at your own credit. So that’s really important to know. Jill, I’m glad that you pointed that out. But we know divorce is already, it’s an emotional, chaotic time.
I know I went through it myself and the financial piece, if you’re not familiar with finances at all, [00:07:00] can be very much like a blindside. So what are some of the biggest money shocks you think women need to be prepared for?
Jill: So I think a lot of people. Don’t know what they spend every month. And so you charge it on your credit card and if you’re lucky, you can pay your credit card off, right. And you don’t really keep track of what you’re spending your money on. And I think that’s a really important piece to know what you’re spending so that you know what you need when you’re going through divorce.
And you can also plan what your post-divorce life, you can’t plan a post-divorce life unless you know what you need in terms of finances. So I think the first thing that people need to start with is really think deeply about what they want their post-divorce life to look like, and where do they wanna live?
Do they want to own or rent? Do they want. To be able to have, [00:08:00] extra money so that they’re not stressed by paying a mortgage or a rent. Do they wanna travel. There’s so many things that you have to think about when you are thinking about your finances that have nothing to do with finance, that have to do with just what is going to make you happy post-divorce, and that will help you back into the financial piece of that.
Maggie: Do you think it’s hard for people to kind of envision what that life is gonna be like when they’re in this kind of, I almost wanna describe it as a tornado, it’s like, of course I wanna go on vacation, I wanna run away from this. But like I wouldn’t even know where to start to grasp of like what I want that to look like
’cause I feel like I’m in bubble of chaos.
Jill: I mean, that’s the hardest thing that I have to try to get people to do when I work with them because they’re so in the crisis of the day, they’re working on what’s happening today. And I was like that too. I mean it, you can’t help it because there’s so many things going on that are stressful and really overwhelming, but.
[00:09:00] The best way to handle your divorce is not to get caught up in all those crises. The best way is to have us take a step back and have perspective of you’re not gonna be going through your divorce forever, and you want to be prepared for your post-divorce life. So you need to start thinking about that now today.
And once you have that perspective, it makes it easier to handle all the crises that come up.
Maggie: Yeah, that makes a lot of sense. ‘Cause I know for, figuring out the finances, you can kind of go back to old data like your credit cards and see what you spent. But sometimes looking forward can be a little harder. When you are kind of in that whirlwind. So I know you help make clear or you help people kind of make these clear, calm decisions during.
The messiest times of their lives.
What’s one thing that you wish every divorced woman knew before signing anything?
Jill: Well, first of all, don’t sign anything until you have an attorney. Check it, a divorce [00:10:00] coach, check it. You have to really think through. how many people sign things and don’t even read them right? You trust that what you think is in there.
And you cannot do that with a divorce agreement because that thing, once you sign it, is a legal document even before you submit it to the court.
And I’ve worked with people who’ve signed things in mediation and then have completely been screwed over, and then they try to go back to court and the court’s like, too bad, and they’ve spent a year and. A lot of money trying to fight it, and it usually doesn’t work. So you wanna read through that thing bit by bit and line by line and make sure that you understand everything that’s in there before you sign it. I mean, everything related to, there’s so many details that people don’t even think about.
Like, what happens to retirement accounts? What happens if the retirement accounts are going to be split [00:11:00] and it’s not done within six months? Is there any negative to that? I mean, there’s so many little things like that you really want somebody who’s experienced with this to help you go over ’cause you can’t do that yourself.
Barb: Yeah. What we hear time and time again is that because they wanna be done right, they wanna be done with this divorce and move on. Too often they rush through it. And they do sign documents that in hindsight, they wish they hadn’t done. So can you speak to that a little bit?
Jill: I mean, first of all, if you’re in mediation, you should never sign anything in your mediation session. You should bring it back. Think about it. Bring it to your attorney when you’re calm. Certain mediators really wanna get this done. They wanna get a completed agreement.
So they may put pressure that wasn’t my experience. And usually when I work with people i’m very clear on don’t sign anything in mediation, but I think there are certain [00:12:00] situations where they do put pressure on people to sign things, and there’s no way you can look through that whole agreement when you’re sitting there in front of other people.
You can take little bits of it at a time, but you can’t look through it all. So why are we. Letting people pressure us to sign something we have to look underneath that. And that’s something, an insecurity that we think, oh, we’re supposed to understand everything and we’re supposed to seem like we are in control of the situation.
When they pressure us to sign it. We feel like we’re gonna look stupid if we don’t sign it. Maybe I’m not sure what’s going through people’s minds, but you look smart if you don’t sign something, if you say, I need some time to think about it and I need some time to go over this when I’m calm and I’m on my own.
Maggie: So kind of like with your position as a coach and working with this process, I also feel like people might read it and we’ve all read something and we are at the end and we’re like not [00:13:00] quite sure what that means. I also am being stingy on my money and don’t wanna pay the attorney for every 15 minutes while I ask questions that I am blaming myself that I should know.
And so then it’s kind of this roundabout of like, I did read it technically, but I don’t get it and I don’t really wanna pay my attorney anymore. Are you someone who can help in this situation or do you recommend just spend the money with the attorney? It’s worth it or how do you kind of go about facing that?
Because it’s kind of like a rock and a hard place and you can’t just check GPT at all.
Jill: Right, exactly. Well it is kind of a combination of what you’re talking about, so I can look over everything and say, okay, this looks good, but oh, this, I’m not sure. You need to go to your attorney about. And that is so much better than just looking at the whole agreement and saying, well, I understand most of it, but I’m not really sure.
I mean, if you can get someone like me who really has a lot of experience in looking at these [00:14:00] agreements to say, oh, you don’t have to worry about that. You need to change that. That’s good. But this piece is really, I’m not sure about, you need to go to your attorney. That’ll save you, a thousand or more dollars right there, because two or three hours with an attorney is gonna be, over a thousand dollars.
So yeah, definitely having someone who has the experience who can look it over and say what you need to go to the attorney about and what you don’t will really help.
Barb: Jill, so when it comes to co-parenting, what’s the common mistake you see people make that end up costing them emotionally and financially?
Jill: So the biggest mistake I see is that they allow the other parent to trigger them. In so many ways. So we, you’re going from a marriage relationship to a co-parenting relationship, and that’s a huge shift. As a married couple. You have to [00:15:00] come up with a agree, compromises and care about what each other thinks and talk through things, and you really have to.
Care about that relationship and work hard on it. As a co-parent, it’s more like a colleague or a coworker. You can, you don’t have to agree on everything. You don’t have to convince the other person what’s right or what’s wrong, or you don’t have to talk through things. You just really have to be respectful and you have to make sure that you are communicating.
Appropriately for things that you need to communicate, which is mostly about the children. And so when you say something to your soon to be ex like Bobby really wants to do some sport like baseball. Okay? Bobby’s told me he really wants to do baseball. This fall and it’s gonna be, $250.
I think we really should spend it. And your soon to be ex says, you know what? I don’t think he would be a really good ball [00:16:00] player. I don’t think that’s the right thing for him. I think we should look at different things. Then you might start getting into an argument. Right. You’re, but he told me that he wants it.
It’s really important. We have to support him. That’s gonna be an emotional conversation. You don’t have to do that. You can say, look, why don’t you talk to him and, you let me know what. You wanna do because you really wanna get out of the middle of the relationship between the children.
And the other parent. And you want to, do what’s best for your child, but you can’t control the other person. So you’ve got to have them come to you with how they feel and you know what they’re willing to do. And it’s not something that you should spend a lot of time having an emotional conversation.
If you do wanna have some kind of communication, you can always send them an email and you can write. It in a way where, this is what they’ve told me. I’m willing to pay, $200 if you’re willing to pay 50, or something if you really [00:17:00] wanna do that. Or you could say, you know what we really need to work this out.
Maybe we could have a conversation with. Him together, so there’s a lot of things that you can do, but you don’t need to have an emotional conversation with the person. So that’s the biggest mistake is having emotional conversations when you shouldn’t have any emotional conversations are never gonna end well as co-parents, you really wanna be calm, respectful, and if you can’t be, just say, you know what, let’s talk about this another time I have to run.
Let’s plan a time. We can talk about it.
Maggie: Do you recommend like a lot of the communication be, I hear this sometimes more like text or email just because it’s written and more traceable. Trackable proof of conversation,
Jill: So this is another mistake people make. They think everything’s going to court, right? They think if somebody says something not nice in an email, they’re gonna find out what is gonna happen when they’re, the judge reprimands them. Most [00:18:00] people are not going to court. If you’re in a situation where you are going to court, yes, you should track everything, you should keep everything.
There are parenting apps. Co-parenting apps that you can use to do that. But yes, if it’s extreme, you probably wanna keep it. But nobody’s going to remove custody because they were obnoxious in an email to you. Texts I think are difficult because it’s hard not to respond right away.
So I really recommend people. If it is a high conflict situation to communicate with email, because then you can think through it. You can look at over. You don’t have to read their email right away. So it’s much more manageable than text or talking to someone. But you know, if you can get to a good point, and I help people get to a better point when they’re communicating because initially when I’m working with people, they are emotional, they’re reactive, and they really are reacting to everything.
And, we work [00:19:00] on what you need to react to, what you don’t need to react to, and also how to respond in a way that’s going to be lowering the conflict. Because a lot of times they’ll say things or respond and it’ll increase the conflict. They won’t even realize it. They think that they’re being respectful, but really there’s a tone or there’s something in there that’s not respectful.
Barb: it takes a lot of discipline to dial back the emotion when you’re trying to communicate.
Jill: Oh yeah. I mean, you’re in an emotional situation, right? You’re divorcing someone for a reason. There’s anger, there’s grief, there’s sadness. Every emotion you can imagine. And so it’s understandable that people are emotional, but it’s not gonna get you where you wanna go if you have these emotional conversations and if you’re reactive.
So it’s about being strategic while you’re going through the process.
Maggie: Now, just a personal curiosity, a little sidetrack here. Since you work with a lot of families and [00:20:00] co-parenting, how often do you see it where they keep the house, where they have the kids live in it and the parents come in and out of that house?
Jill: So that’s called nesting?
Maggie: I guess so it always seemed like it would be hard, like you need to have a real good relationship with each co-parent to have that.
And so I was wondering like, is that common these days? Is it becoming more common?
Jill: So I think it’s more commonly known these days, but you really can’t do that for a permanent solution it’s usually a temporary solution under a year. But you know, if you can do it, if you can get along, that’s great. I knew I had one couple where one party moved up to the attic and the other one stayed in the house and they had separate areas and they were able to do that.
But when you get new partners it can get really complicated. So I don’t think it really is a long-term solution.
Maggie: It’s fair. I was just curious as I, you hear about it and you’re like, ah, I wonder how that works actually, like day to day.
Barb: There are some women who kinda go quiet. They lose their voice in divorce. So what’s something you would say [00:21:00] to women so that they don’t get small and lose their voice during this very difficult time.
Jill: Well, so divorce is one of the toughest things anybody can go through, and every day that you’re waking up and you’re dealing with, it is a day to realize how strong you are because you’ve gotten through it, and you’re continuing to get through it. So recognizing that you are strong to be able to go through this process.
A lot of people won’t get divorced because they just are not strong enough. Like it’s really hard. And so seeing your strength is one way to build on building your voice, right? And as you go through this and as you come out of it and you see all that you’ve done, you really need to. I mean, learn from what you’ve experienced.
And one of those things to learn is to have a voice, right? I think a lot of people in their marriages, in their relationships maybe don’t have [00:22:00] as much of a voice as they really should, and if that’s something that’s. Tough for you. Get help, go to therapy, work on your self-esteem. Brene Brown is awesome.
You know her she’s got books and TED talks that help you. There’s lots of information out there that you can use to work on your self-esteem, but therapy’s always a good choice.
Maggie: And so I know you’ve also helped a lot of people kind of turn this heartbreak into strength. So what’s just a small thing women could do today if they kind of feel lost in the whole process.
Jill: So you will be lost if you don’t get help. I mean, what I did was I hired an attorney. And my ex hired his attorney and immediately we were adversaries and I was not in control of the process. So you don’t wanna do that. You really wanna have control when you’re going through this and you wanna have professionals around you who can help you get that control.
So, for example, as a divorce [00:23:00] coach, I help people. Tell their attorney what is okay and what’s not okay. Like I want to, I don’t wanna file with the court. I can’t tell you how many people come to me and say, my attorney told me I have to file with the court and I’m gonna serve him next week.
And I was like, okay, that’s not the best way because immediately somebody gets served and that is a fight, that is really upsetting when you serve someone. And I don’t think attorneys even think, not all attorneys, there are attorneys out there who are really aware of this and don’t do this, but a lot of attorneys.
Don’t even realize the impact of being served. An example of something that you can say, well, you know what, I don’t want him to be served until I talk to him or I don’t wanna file with the court. I wanna do it another way. So there’s lots of ways that you can go through this, where you are the one who has.
The power and you don’t, I mean they work for you. Attorneys work for you. A lot of [00:24:00] people are scared, well, I don’t think my attorney will go along with that. Well, too bad you can get another attorney. Like you have to be the one in control. The attorney doesn’t know you your soon to be ex or your children as well as you do.
So I really encourage people to get support if they need help with them.
Maggie: I don’t think people always know that you can do it without filing at the court or getting them served. I think about like watching movies and they’re always just getting served or you have to file at the court. I think so many people think that’s like. How you get divorced. So like what are kind of the other ways to do it?
Jill: So it depends on your state. There are certain states that have a waiting period, but most don’t. For example, North Carolina I think has a year waiting period. So you do have to file to get that year waiting period started, but in most states, I think you have to be living separately for a year before they will legally divorce you
in certain states but if you don’t have that, most states have one, two, or three month. Waiting periods, [00:25:00] which is nothing because it’s gonna take you that long to negotiate your divorce so you don’t have to file with the court when you’re starting, you can go to mediation is one way, which I highly recommend.
You can do it yourself. Sit down together at a table and go over it yourself. You can do it with a mediator, which is a neutral third party. A lot of times when you have attorneys, they wanna be in the mediation, which I don’t recommend because. It makes things more complicated and more adversarial.
So just you two and a mediator can sit and talk through a lot of things and get pretty far before you even file. The idea is that if there is a short waiting period, you get your agreement, you both sign it, and then you file an uncontested divorce. That uncontested divorce will take a month or two to go through the court system.
And the judge usually just rubber stance that if it’s. Reasonably fair and then you’re legally divorced, so you never have to file until you have an actually signed [00:26:00] agreement.
Maggie: So you do have to file it sometime, but you just don’t have to do it right away and you file for an uncontested divorce.
Jill: Yeah, it’s a totally different circumstance if it’s uncontested versus contested because a contested regular divorce, when you file with the court is going to have a timeline and they’re gonna tell you what to do and what steps, and you don’t need that. That’s just a lot of waste of time and money if you’re gonna be able to get to an agreement without the court.
Barb: Cool. So, we’re contemplating all of this ’cause I’ve never heard of that before either. So all good news good information to have. So you’ve been through it, I’ve been through it. But now you’re helping others thrive on the other side and we ask everyone this one last question. So Jill, what’s your personal definition of financial freedom?
Jill: My personal definition is being able to do what you love and not being stressed [00:27:00] about money. That to me is financial freedom what you love is different to everybody, right? You have to know what that is, and so many people don’t even think about that, but it’s important to know what makes you happy and what you love to do.
Well, I actually love my work, which I know that’s not really what you’re supposed to say, but I wake up on Monday mornings and I’m kind of excited for the week, we moved out to Colorado to ski and I had never. Well, it was ’cause my husband actually, lived out here. So I moved out part of the year here and I never skied out west before I started a few years ago.
Started dating my husband, and skiing out here and actually summers out here are the most beautiful thing. And so being in nature and skiing, snowshoeing, hiking, that is really what fills me up and makes me happy. And I try to do it every day. So it’s pretty cool.
Maggie: I love that gets you out, gets you fit, gets some fresh [00:28:00] air, all the good things. Well, this has been a great conversation and so Jill, how can people, connect with you, work with you, reach out, do all those good things?
Jill: My website is divorce coach jill.com. I have email is info@divorcecoachjill.com. That’s pretty easy. I also have a free Facebook group for people going through separation and divorce, and it’s called Separation and Divorce Support Community. So they can work with me there.
Maggie: Awesome. Well, we appreciate you coming on and sharing your expertise today. I think Barb and I even learned a couple things, which is always fun. And so yeah, we appreciate it. We encourage you guys to reach out to Jill. Stay connected. And until next time, be financially fearless.
Outro: You’ve been listening to Women Money, the shit we don’t talk about. Now it’s time to take what you’ve learned and make bold moves towards financial independence. Stay in the know by joining our newsletter for exclusive tools, resources, and updates that keep you financially fearless. Head to [00:29:00] PurseStrings. co and sign up today. Need a financial professional who gets it? Turn to PurseStrings Curated Directory, your go to resource for financial experts who know how to put you first. Love this episode? Leave us a review and help us empower even more women to own their financial power. Until next time, be financially fearless.
Are Prenups the Ultimate ‘Love Insurance’? with Jessica & Brandon Norwood
Money and marriage, two things that can bring couples closer or tear them apart. In this episode, we’re joined by Jessica and Brandon Norwood, founders of The Sugar Daddy Podcast, to talk about the money conversations every couple needs to have if they want their relationship (and their finances) to thrive.
Jessica, a tech consultant and the breadwinner in her family and Brandon, a financial planner share their journey from friendship to marriage, how they navigated big money differences, and why they believe every couple should have a prenup or postnup (they call it “love insurance”).
Whether you’re dating, newly married, or celebrating decades together, this conversation is packed with real talk, relatable stories, and smart strategies you can put into action right away.
00:00 Intro
01:44 The Origin of the Sugar Daddy Podcast
03:59 Discussing Money in Relationships
10:45 Prenups and Postnups: Love Insurance
14:51 Practical Financial Planning for Couples
20:21 Dream Framework for Couples
20:49 Understanding Money Emotions and Experiences
22:43 Building a Joint Vision and Money Mantra
27:33 Balancing Financial Roles in a Relationship
29:48 The Importance of Communication
31:59 Common Money Myths for Couples
36:22 Defining Financial Freedom
Have questions? Click this to check out our expert Q&A for tips from industry experts, tailored to help women address their most common financial concerns.
Subscribe to our newsletter to receive financial tips delivered weekly here!
(This transcript was generated using AI, so please excuse any misspellings or errors)
Barb:[00:00:00] Maggie we title this podcast, women and Money. The shit we don’t talk about is because there’s. So much we don’t talk about money. It’s just so true and especially when we’re in relationships and everyone says, you need to talk about money. You need to have a budget. You need to talk about how you’re gonna manage your money when you get married, when you’re in relationship.
And it’s so much easier said than done, right? if you meet someone, you fall in love and you really like that person and you see some red flags about money, you might try to look past those, right? And just say, yeah, well we’ll figure it out or something, and maybe you will, but maybe you won’t.
And so oftentimes people will say to us, we don’t really talk about money. My husband handles the finances or I just give the money to him to pay the bills, and sometimes women will say, I’m in charge of all the money and my husband wouldn’t know how to pay the bills. Sometimes it’s the opposite, [00:01:00] but there is very limited times that we’ve met a couple, like we’ve interviewed today on our podcast where they have really healthy money conversations and more importantly.
It stems from the fact that they both came out of families of divorce.
Maggie: definitely took, like we know what we don’t want, but sometimes that’s still hard to understand what you do want. You need to practice having these conversations, but you need that second person to practice with and you don’t know what their responses are gonna be, which you can’t control that.
Sometimes I don’t even know what my own response is gonna be. And so you just have to learn how to work with that. And you don’t know am I doing the conversation wrong? Are they doing it wrong? Is wrong the right word? Like, why is this not aligning? And it can be really hard.
And I think they’ve had a very successful conversations, and I know they said that they started from that friendship place first before that relationship so it’s not like you’re trying to impress that person. if you really love someone and you see their kind of [00:02:00] financial situation, how you might be like, yeah, well they had to overcome this or overcome that, or this is the reason.
And put some, like I explanation behind it. Yeah. Justification, which could be true. You know what I mean? Like. Yeah, they have student debt and no one paid for it for them. Like, I get that. You know what I mean? But it could also be these other things where it’s like, eh, you’re being a little lenient with that justification right there, how many things can you justify until you know your red flag flies? And so
it’s hard.
Barb: yes, however. There’s a way through it. I think if you have really good conversations and you really understand how to have financial conversations together as a couple, which they have done so well. And they’ve really given some gems in this podcast And money conversations are full of, I think sometimes shame or guilt or uncertainty, and you have to approach them without any of that, with just, money’s a tool that we have.
Sometimes there’s a limit to it and we have [00:03:00] to figure out how to manage it together. But, I just think there’s a wealth of information in this podcast that it has to offer our audience about how to have these conversations, the importance of ’em, and some ways to think about not casting judgment on one’s feelings.
Maggie: And I think it all day also show how much stronger you come through on the other side once you have these conversations and really build that muscle and make this a consistent thing. How much then, like, love, care, support, and like foundation there is of real strength in that relationship. So I’m excited for everyone to dive into this.
I know I learned some great nuggets and am inspired. So I think we should just get started.
Barb: Let’s do it.
Gloria Steinem once said, we will never solve the feminization of power until we solve the masculinity of wealth. Barbara Provost and Maggie Nielsen are the team at purse strings that will help [00:04:00] you navigate the ins and outs of financial independence so that you can be financially fearless. This is women in money, the shit we don’t talk about.
Maggie: Welcome to Women and Money, the shit we don’t talk about. And today we have another duo with us, so we’re always the duo usually. But today we have Jessica and Brandon Norwood on, and they are the founders of the Sugar Daddy podcast. And so we are thrilled to have this conversation. But before we dive in, could you both introduce yourself to the community a little who you are, what you do?
Jessica & Brandon: Absolutely. Thank you for having us first and foremost. Excited to be here. I’m Jessica. I’m sure you can tell by my voice that I’m not Brandon. No judgment. I do know a female Brandon actually.
I am a wife, a mother. I work full time in the tech space as a consultant. I’ve been in it for going on over a decade at this point, and I am actually [00:05:00] the sugar daddy in our relationship, so I’m the breadwinner of our household. I also am the person who still works that corporate nine to five. So I have the benefits and the 401k match and the stocks and all of those things that bring me a lot of joy and happiness and financial security so that my partner over here, Brandon, can do what he loves to do and he does that for himself.
So we are kind of split in that way of one of us being in corporate and one of us being an entrepreneur. I’m Brandon Norwood and I am a financial planner. I’m the owner of Oak City Financial. I have been. In financial services, this is my 14th year, and majority of people that I work with as far as from a client standpoint are what we refer to as elder millennials.
So individuals that are anywhere from like mid thirties to early forties is the primary demographic that I work with.
Barb: Wonderful. I wanna hear about how the Sugar Daddy Podcast got started and how did you come up with your name?
Jessica & Brandon:[00:06:00] That is all. Jess, I’ll take that one. Brandon gets a lot of weird looks when we tell people that our podcast is the Sugar Daddy podcast and they assume that he came up with the name, but it was actually me. And it sounds really cheesy and corny, but it actually. Came to me in a dream.
And really the premise is how to be your own sugar daddy, right? So how to either if you wanna become one or not need one, really is what we’re aiming for. So if you are a woman and you wanna be your own sugar daddy, we are all about that. So he wanted to talk about all things finance at the end of really long days.
Like I said I’m in consulting, I’m on the phone, I’m on video calls 10 plus hours a day, all different time zones across the globe, and quite frankly, I don’t wanna talk about finance at the end of the day. And so I told him he needed a different outlet for these conversations. And we played around with social media and videos and newsletters and social media’s.
Just not, it’s [00:07:00] not his thing for me, I’m a little bit long-winded. There’s a lot of good things on social media, but I feel a lot of stuff is missed because there’s such snippets and you need the longer version of it to have a better idea of is it applicable to your specific situation? Yeah, and so the podcast really, we were just kind of constantly talking about, well, what could it be?
How can you get away from the clickbait titles and really have meaningful. Discussions and reach quote unquote the masses. And so I had a dream one night about the podcast. I put a note in my phone and forgot about it for weeks. And then we were on a road trip and I said, gosh, I think I put something in my phone that I wanted to talk to you about.
And there it was the Sugar Daddy podcast. And it’s been going for this year will be three years. Yeah, we definitely had to do it together because me, by myself would be a terrible podcast. She’s way more entertaining than I am.
Barb: Well, it’s fun to have that banter back and forth, right? And Brandon, you’re the financial professional. Jessica, you are the professional in [00:08:00] tech. And as a couple, I mean the questions about money, in a family, all those conversations are so important to have. And so we’re gonna dive into that today.
So often at purse strings, we get asked that questions, how do I open that conversation with my husband, or We never really talk about the money, or I hide my purchases in the trunk until my husband leaves, and then I run them in the house. There’s too much sneakiness that goes on because they haven’t really talked about how we’re gonna manage our money.
So let’s dive into some of that.
Maggie: yeah, I mean, as we know money is one of those top reasons couples split. We hear this all the time. What’s some of the most common arguments you’ve seen and how do couples kind of flip these conversations to actually bring them closer instead of kind of drawing this wedge in between them?
Jessica & Brandon: I would say the number one reason is actually just not having the conversation in general. So therefore, you have individuals who maybe are married, been married for a few years. And they’ve never actually had a conversation to understand how each of them views money [00:09:00] and how each of them wants to use money to build a life that they wanna live.
And unfortunately I honestly wouldn’t say that money is the top reason that people get divorced. I would say a lack of communication is probably the number one reason. And then when that happens, if you have money issues that just makes every other issue that you may have that much more of a big issue.
Barb: Are there ways that you have those conversations with people that you’re working with?
Jessica & Brandon: so first and foremost, you have to be open to having a conversation. So one of the things that I try to present myself when I could tell that those conversations haven’t been had is being that third party kind of a mediator where I’m the neutral. I’m not on either person’s side, I’m just trying to facilitate a conversation so that each person can understand the other person’s view.
And mainly what it boils down to is that. Most of the time, you’re not gonna have two individuals that grew up with money the same way. So money growing up in their households were two different ways, and that’s the biggest influence on how you interact with money as an adult. So therefore, as an [00:10:00] adult, now you might have two individuals that view money differently, one, to use it differently, but they haven’t talked to each other about it.
So for example, like you said, the hiding the purchases, one person might be quote unquote more spender, one might be more of a saver. And then now they’re kind of butting heads because they’re not on the same page.
Maggie: And so do you guys feel like you have always talked about money in your relationship, or is this something like when you went more into personal finance or was this like a first date conversation?
Jessica & Brandon: I think we had the benefit of starting off as friends, and so we had just all kinds of conversations without the. I need to impress this person, kind of as the undertone. So we knew a lot about each other because of the year and a half of friendship that we had before we started dating.
We were both products of divorce. Brandon’s parents divorced when he was five and my parents divorced when I was in my late twenties when Brandon and I actually got together. And so both products of divorce, but very different experiences, obviously going through that at different [00:11:00] times of our lives.
Overarching theme was we don’t wanna do it like our parents did it. And so we very quickly came together and basically just talked about all the things we knew that negatively impacted our parents’ relationships. And we said, these are the things we wanna do differently. We also came from different socioeconomic background, so to speak.
So one example is I had a hundred thousand dollars in student loans and Brandon. I don’t know, maybe had 2000 from law school. So there was a great disparity there and that was something that I knew I was going to have to pay off these loans for a long time. And so when we kind of started merging our lives, we talked about what does this look like?
Does this come out of my paycheck? Do we combine it? We both were homeowners when we moved in together, so I actually ended up moving into. His house and I was renting out mine. But we did have the conversations of, Hey, I [00:12:00] don’t necessarily wanna like pay you rent and make all these home improvements and buy new furniture and do all these things.
And then what happens if our relationship dissolves? Now you have. All the sweat equity and financial equity that I’ve put into this home and what do I get for it? And so I do think that we had a lot of the harder conversations early on that most people typically don’t. But really for us it was rooted in.
If we are gonna get married, we’re only doing this once, so let’s do it right. And if I can’t talk to you about everything, then we probably don’t need to be getting married in the first place. I think also too, like when we first started dating, I was 30 and she was 28. So we were at a certain phase in our life where we, I would, we were looking for marriage.
So I wasn’t dating to date, I was dating to find my wife. And I think that makes a big difference in regards to how you go about it, because. I think some people look at the dating phase very different than, oh, I’m just dating and now I’m gonna move into the [00:13:00] marriage phase. In all honesty, it merged for me.
Like when we were dating, I definitely had numerous Freudian slips where before we even got engaged or married, I would introduce her as my fiance or my wife. And so I think having that mindset early on, knowing that she was my person, we already had, like I said, we had those conversations early ’cause we were already planning on merging our life.
Maggie: Yeah, I love that. And I love that you’ve had those conversations as I see in that age range, so many of my friends kind of had that same kind of house scenario and it’s like, alright, how do we split this? Because again I’m not just paying rent in this house. It’s so different if we stay together versus if we end up separate.
But it is kind of that mindset going into it is like, we are here for the long run. And so how do we wanna really make this a stable foundation and not just, a house of cards that might fall down.
Jessica & Brandon: and also too is having those conversations early on that are deal breakers. How you manage money and how your viewpoint on it. If you’re really hard set and you guys have two different views, more than likely that relationship is not gonna work. So why waste your time?
Barb: Yeah. [00:14:00] And some people think they can get past that they’re like, yeah, he’s a suspender. But there’s a lot of, and somebody said at one point, and I’ve mentioned this before, is what you see as a red flag becomes a billboard in your marriage. It does make sense. And those are big billboards.
When you’re talking about marriage and you mentioned the student loan debt, and that’s big that has a big impact because that can impact a lot of things in your marriage. Having a large debt like that and the fact that you came clean on that sometimes people don’t because they’re afraid to mention that, but you need to get all your cards out on the table, and that’s a lot of times why we say people should have.
Prenup through that conversation is when you really have to come clean about where you’re at financially. What do you think
about a prenup?
Jessica & Brandon: we just completed a postnup. ’cause it wasn’t on our radar to do a prenup. Yeah. It wasn’t on our radar back then. But just for context, when we started our friendship and then started dating, Brandon was [00:15:00] managing, a shoe store and I was in education. So I taught for seven years.
Our salaries at that time were pretty equal. I mean, everybody knows teachers don’t make very much. So it was fine for the both of us. But then when I moved to North Carolina, I actually switched careers completely and, ended up in tech, which is why I’m now the breadwinner.
At that point we really didn’t have a prenup on our mind. It was just Hey, these debts are mine. This debt is yours. Your house is yours. My house is mine. And it just kind of. Made sense that way. But now with the education that we have we know that it is absolutely just part of a comprehensive financial portfolio.
We would encourage all of our friends who are already married to get a postnup and anybody who’s not yet married to get a prenup. And here are the two things that we’ve kind of started saying about this is you already have a prenup if you’re married, right? Your state gives you one. So you might as well write your own rules, which is really what a prenup or a postnup.
Is, [00:16:00] and I think the other thing that’s important, which is why we didn’t consider it to begin with, is we weren’t millionaires. We weren’t rolling in the dough. We didn’t have a ton of assets. And so I think the misconception is, I’m not a celebrity. I’m not a millionaire. What do I need a prenup for?
And really right now we’re in the prime of our earning years. And so what you’re essentially doing is you’re protecting what you are growing and building, whether it is together or separate. And so we, put pretty basic things into our postnup. What are your debts? What are my debts? What are our combined debts, for example.
The mortgage is solely in my name. He’s on the deed, but financial responsibility technically falls to me. In the event that we were to dissolve our marriage in our postnup, we put that it is both of our debt, it is both an asset and a debt on our line items. So he would be equally as responsible for either selling the house, buying himself, buying me out of my share if he wanted to stay here.
All of those details are now worked out. And so [00:17:00] I think it just makes sense for us. It gives us peace of mind. We’re calling it love insurance. It’s just like your car insurance. You hope to never need it, but you’re grateful for when you have it. And you might as well make your rules while you still like each other.
Love each other, respect each other. That way you can have calm, rational conversations, not when you’re already at capacity and you don’t wanna look at that person’s face anymore. That’s not the time to come up with those details of what’s important to you. I also think it’s really important because we have children, we have two young children, and when the couples get divorced, that’s probably one of the worst times of their lives.
So you want to do what you can beforehand, before you, to the point where you guys maybe, obviously maybe not be on the best terms that you want to have everything organized and set out how that post-divorce would look like, rather than fighting with each other. And then that might bleed over into the relationship that you’re having with the kids.
So we went ahead and got all that out of the way. Everything is spelled out where God forbid something happens when [00:18:00] we do get divorced, that’s already taken care of and we can then focus on the kids because. what was really going with effect.
Maggie: Wow. I love that. And we talk a lot about prenups and we don’t talk too much about postnup, so I appreciate you guys kind of sharing that perspective and how you guys are kind of changing your path as you learn as well in these journeys as. None of us know everything before we get started, as much as we’d love to.
And that doesn’t show like, oh, now we’re headed for separation, but we are doing this because we love each other so much that this is why we’re kind of going through and doing this and doing it for our kids. So that’s just, that’s amazing and appreciate you sharing your story there.
Jessica & Brandon: It really opens up the conversation too. So we normally, we always talk about money, so it was a little different for us. For other people who maybe don’t, this is one step to help them have that conversation. With professional, I mean, they’re not a financial advisor, but they’re at least advising on what they see their clients doing and how their clients split things up.
And like one thing that came up is for example, Brandon is eventually going to get a much larger [00:19:00] inheritance than I would ever get. And so making sure that those assets remain separate. And then, well, what if we do want to combine? What if he does wanna splurge on a crazy, amazing family vacation?
Let’s say $20,000 into our joint account. Like now we have a process behind that of needing a notarized letter. To say on his free will, he is now putting this money into our joint account and it now becomes a joint asset. And so again, it’s just a little bit of that extra protection.
I give the example, my mom when my parents got together had quote, unquote more money than my dad. She took an early inheritance from her dad. To put down onto the house. When they purchased their house, then they got divorced. And to this day, my mom will still bring up that whatever thousands of dollars that it was that she put down towards the joint home, which was totally fine at the time, but not now that they’re divorced and we just didn’t want those situations if [00:20:00] it’s joint money.
It’s gonna be joint money. Here’s a process behind it, it’s gonna be notarized and, it’s official and I don’t wanna hear about it again in the future. So it’s just those things that we can help mitigate if we were to dissolve our marriage
Barb: Yeah, you really learned by some of the mistakes that they made and you were so conscious of it, and I love that. And it shows that both of you know exactly where the money is, where the money’s going, and what would happen at any point in time. Which is brilliant because too often we hear the husband died or filed for a divorce and one of the couples, one person just had no clue about the money.
And that’s the worst case scenario. So kudos to you. This is what we’re trying to get in front of women. The brilliance of what you’re doing is fantastic. So listen up ladies. This is a really smart idea. I mean, it doesn’t mean you’re gonna get divorced, it means you are ensuring your marriage is gonna last forever.
So that’s fantastic.
Jessica & Brandon:[00:21:00] I mean, there’s so much technically she got the entire house, so I, yeah, that’s a whole nother podcast episode. But it’s just those things, it’s that trauma that people my parents got together young, they were 19 and 20, and then got divorced when they were adults with adult children.
I mean, it just, it’s, it wasn’t ideal and there were no divorces ever. Quote unquote fair. Never nobody feels like they got what they deserve, and so by putting a prenup or postnup in place, you can help mitigate some of those feelings because you put the rules in place while you still loved each other.
And also too, in scenarios where there’s a vast difference in how much partners make, you could start to kind of understand like another partner’s fear. Like for example, I’m gonna use a stereotypical standpoint of like say the man makes more money and the wife maybe stays at home and is raising the kids.
And she’s not actively working outside of the home. She might have some fears in regards to if they got divorced it wasn’t bringing in income. Maybe it’s been outta the workforce for a certain number of [00:22:00] years, so it’s gonna be harder to get back into it, and you can kind of have those conversations to, if it does happen, make it as equal as possible.
Yeah, like a requirement to contribute the same amount to retirement accounts, someone with the spousal IRA, stuff of that nature. Think just to keep things a little bit even we even put in there not to get too detailed, but one thing that we talked about, again, trying to get into those nitty gritty details.
Who moves out? How much time do you have? Okay, now you need to start over. In, our case, it’s gonna be Brandon moving out. He’s gonna have to refurnish some new living situation. So what does that look like? Because at that point, I’m not gonna care where he’s sleeping, but I will still care about my children.
And so we actually put a stipend in there from the joint account that he would then be able to take to furnish a new apartment or a new house, et cetera. Because again, you’re buying two new beds for our kids and a sofa and bar stools. And I mean, life is expensive. And so where does that money come from?
And we decided it would come from our joint account [00:23:00] again, to take care of our children, to make sure that they have. As minimal of a bumpy ride in this as possible. And that they still get to come home to a great home environment, no matter whose home it is. And so those are again, it’s really just about you creating your own rules and figuring out what’s important to you and putting it down on paper.
So we feel great about it. We, I mean, we nerd out on these things, which I know makes us probably the rarity. But for us it really felt like a great process to get it all out even down to what happens if we have an aging parent that needs to move in, how do we handle that financially? I mean, we’re in that realm.
We see it all the time early onset dementia or Alzheimer’s that comes out of nowhere and now you have a family member living with you like that will rock your marriage. So let’s put a plan in place of what, does that look like for us, and how does that affect our finances and the goals that we’ve set out for each other.
So I would say as a financial planner. I try to think about what is the worst case scenario [00:24:00] for pretty much any situation that you could come up we wanna, most often, you’re not gonna always have the worst case scenario, but if we could put a plan in place that is able to weather the worst case scenario, more than likely you should be good in the outcome.
Maggie: Yeah, I mean everyone always asks like will I be okay especially in a divorce? And it’s like, now you know you will be okay. You’ll have the money for the furniture. Like you have these processes already set, so you will be okay. I really wanna dive into this dream framework for couples and for their money conversations.
And so could you kind of break down what this means? And I know there’s a vision part and so why this is more important than just numbers, but also kind of the vision you have in your relationship.
Jessica & Brandon: So the Dream Framework, it’s an acronym, so dive, reflect, engage, act, and manage. And it is for couples to have better conversations around money. Brandon always likes to say the numbers are the easy part. And so really what the difficult part is are the emotions that people carry with them when it comes to their money whether it’s positive or [00:25:00] negative in most cases
people do not come together with the same money experiences or the same money passed. And so people are bringing their shame, their trauma, their baggage into their relationships. And really you need to work those out first. And so dive is really important because it’s an opportunity for you to reflect on
what has happened in your past? Why do you feel the way you feel about money? What instances helped shape your, environment, and the way you operate today? I’ll give a quick example. When we went out to eat as a family, when we were younger, it was absolutely no appetizers, definitely not a dessert, and everybody’s drinking water, right?
And I hated that. I hated. Going out and it seemingly being a fun experience, but then having nothing but restriction. If my dad ordered more than one beer at dinner, he definitely was gonna be getting a side eye from my mom. Right? And again the experience is then like, just, it’s not fun.
[00:26:00] I’d rather sit at home with a PB and j and a cup of water than to go out to dinner and you tell me what I can and can’t order. And so that’s something that. I brought with me into our relationship. Brandon knows if there’s gonna be a budget around dinner or a restriction on what we can and can’t order.
Just leave me at home. I don’t want any part of it because I’ve already had that in my past, and so it’s something so simple. That most people probably don’t even think about or process, but we have these experiences that shape us and we bring those with us. And so really understanding why somebody is the way they are with money and their feelings around it, whether positive or negative, will really help you understand your partner and have those conversations.
And so the key theme around the dream framework. Is to build a joint vision of how you want your life to look. And of course, we do need to fund whatever life we want with money, ’cause life is expensive. But [00:27:00] some people value, things. Maybe it’s designer items, maybe it’s the big house, the fancy car, whatever that is.
Like no judgment. Figure out what that is and hopefully you can find a similarity between you and your partner that will help you. Make those tough choices when it does come down to eventually needing to budget and look at the numbers and understand your, cash flow. But finding that alignment is really important.
And so you almost wanna come up with a shared, not just a shared vision, but maybe like a money mantra or a mission statement for you and your family of. What drives you and what you’re working towards that can ground you when it’s time to make tough money decisions and have those tough conversations,
Barb: Do you have a money mission statement or mantra that
you have in your family?
Jessica & Brandon: We do ours is always going to be around raising good humans and traveling the world. It’s so much when you have kids, like it’s the most beautiful and exhausting thing you can do. [00:28:00] So really our mission is always going to be around. Helping our kids be the best that they can be and helping them see the world because we strongly feel like when you know that there are people outside of your little bubble, it makes you a more empathetic person.
It helps you appreciate different cultures and just aspects of how people live. Also brings on this component of being grateful, right? When you can see. That other people don’t live in the privilege that we live in. I think that is a really important thing to show our children.
And so our, money always goes to travel. That’s where we, spend the bulk of our money. We were both, really fortunate to travel the world when we were young. Jess was born in Germany, lived there the first 10 years of her life, so she traveled all over Europe. As a child, I was fortunate enough to travel when I was young, overseas,
all of those memories as a kid. I think helped factor into how we view the world and sense of being more open-minded more caring, and we wanna make sure that we instill those in our [00:29:00] kids because I feel like the most closed-minded individuals, unfortunately, are the ones that are at least traveled.
Barb: Yes, I would agree with that. Wonderful. I’m, curious, Brandon, do you use this framework, this dream framework in the work that you do when you work with couples?
Jessica & Brandon: we are now starting to incorporate it ’cause the dream framework is something newer that we came up with. And so I would say previously I probably did some bits and pieces of it. Because it all depends on the scenario because honestly, my ideal scenario when I’m meeting with a couple is that they’re already on the same page because that’s gonna make my job significantly easier.
Because in all honesty, to a certain degree, if you’re coming to me as a couple and you guys haven’t at least had some of these conversations and you’re not on the same page, or you’ve tried to have these conversations and it’s not going well, I might not be the best stop as a financial planner.
You might be better all suited for a financial therapist to help work through those things first, and then once you guys are on the same page, then you come to me. Well, in the times that you’ve had couples who are clearly not on the same page, [00:30:00] one of the people wants to move forward, and the other person is
totally resistant and you’re not gonna be able to move the needle or be able to work with somebody when they’re coming to you in a partnership, but they’re not working in a partnership. And through my years and experience I’ve gotten much better at recognizing that early on and just saying, Hey, maybe I’m not the right fit for you.
Whereas earlier on in my career I would try and it was just unfortunately a waste of time from both sides.
Barb: Yeah. good for you that you’re not just trying to fit people into a, square peg into a round hall because people have to find their way and be ready,
Jessica & Brandon: Oh yeah.
Barb: do this kind of work.
Jessica & Brandon: Oh, definitely. feel as though maybe some people think that they come to me and I just quote, unquote do all the work and solve all their problems, and that’s not it at all. It is a 50 50 partnership and you have to be ready and willing to do the work. Like I said, when you’re in a relationship, both of you guys have to be willing and ready to do the work.
Maggie: That’s the other thing, is you’re not gonna tell someone how to budget or how to spend their money or like I can give you recommendations on what you might need for retirement, but what you do day to day, [00:31:00] if you go out to eat, if you buy food and bring it in, if you travel, if you don’t, I mean, that’s on you.
So you can’t tell people how to do that. And so that’s something that they really have to kind of iron out themselves and see what’s most, most important.
Jessica & Brandon: That’s the first thing I say. I say, I don’t tell you what to do. I have conversations with you to understand who you are as a person, the goals that you’re looking to achieve, maybe some of the problems you’re looking to solve, and I help guide you along this journey. But you’re the one ultimately leading and making the final decision.
So if you wanna spend more on something than we had talked about that’s a decision you can make. It’s just, it’s gonna have pros and cons to it.
Maggie: Yeah, definitely. And so Jessica, with you being the sugar daddy in the relationship, which sounds fun, but also comes with its own set of challenges, how do you kind of balance supporting your partner and making sure you’re both on the same page financially?
Jessica & Brandon: Yeah, I think it just comes back down to communication. I mean, there were times early on in Brandon’s business where. He’s a business owner. Whatever he makes, he pours back into his business. [00:32:00] So there’s that component. There’s also a lot of trial and error. Some things work, some things don’t.
And sometimes it takes a little while to figure it out. His income is very inconsistent, whereas mine is consistent. And so we’ve definitely had conversations over the years, especially as we started growing our family and things became more expensive. You know you had 202 in daycare at one point.
I mean, that is a huge financial Exactly. Expense that about $35,000 a year. I mean, it was a lot. And so there was times where I was like, Hey, I think I might need you to do this on the side and you need to come join the nine, nine to five crew over here. And so it really just comes down to when I feel overwhelmed or if I’m feeling.
A certain way, just communicating that and saying, Hey, have you thought about this? What about this? I worked for a Fortune 100 company. Up until last year and I was part of one of the massive mass layoffs. Now, [00:33:00] thankfully, I had a really great severance package, but of course the first thing that came to mind is everybody in the family is on my insurance.
So if we needed to switch that over to Brandon’s, that’s gonna be a very expensive cost as an entrepreneur. Right? And so when you talk about. The burden that was, that felt like a big burden for sure. I like the stability of a steady paycheck. I like commissions and bonuses and I like my 401k match.
And in the past when I’ve had stock options and things, those are great. Those have helped us do all sorts of things. In our life that help us with our joint vision of how we wanna live life. Or we built this house that we’re in two and a half years ago and there was more flexibility in having that steady, when you’re not getting laid off, nine to five.
And so it really just comes down to communication. I mean, I texted him that morning I did not see it coming. And I said. Hey, I just got [00:34:00] laid off and he was like, I’m coming home. He was at the gym and I said no, it’s fine. And I took a day to process and then once I started getting all the paperwork for the severance and stock options and all the things, we sat down and we had a meeting and we said, all right, here are our deadline.
Here’s what we need to know about insurance. Here’s when COBRA kicks in, here’s how much that’s gonna cost. And we just, we sat down, we outlined it, we wrote down questions that we needed to get answered. Thankfully we were able to pocket a lot of the severance as savings because I was able to find another role pretty quickly considering how competitive the environment is.
But we just talk about it. We have to, like, if I’m feeling overwhelmed, I have to tell him because he’s my partner and he has to be able to pick up where I’m unable to process or cope, or if I’m having a, little bit of a mental breakdown moment, like I need him to be there to support me in that and vice versa.
It’s not my responsibility. To manage how he [00:35:00] responds to my feelings. It’s my responsibility to make sure he knows that I’m having feelings. We have a thing where we’re, you don’t get to filter what you say to each other based upon trying to manage the other person’s emotions.
Yeah. Well I thought you were gonna feel, or I thought you were gonna be angry or I, you don’t get to control that. Yeah. What you control is you need to be honest. ’cause when we got married we said we would be honest with each other. So that’s your role. How I respond is none of your concern. And we’ve also always said that like you are entitled to how you feel regardless of what I think.
So I could be like, in my mind, like I don’t, she’s overreacting in my head, but like you were entitled to feel how you feel and vice versa. Yeah, all feelings are valid even if you don’t understand them.
Barb: Love it. So, so mature of you. I mean, not everybody would come forth with
that thinking we’d be like, you just get over it. But so Brandon, let me ask you this question. As a financial
planner, what’s one money [00:36:00] myth? Couples absolutely need to drop if they wanna stay sane and build wealth.
Jessica & Brandon: I think too often people wait for the perfect moment to get started, and then once they actually get started, they always think that it’s gonna be perfect all the way through. And they worry too much about making errors. The reality is that there’s no perfect moment.
Now. is the perfect moment, honestly, to get started. If you haven’t and you’re gonna make errors, you’re gonna make mistakes. That’s the reality. Nothing is going to, no matter how much time and planning you put into it. The first thing I always tell people is that the plan that we’re kind of put in place now.
It’s gonna be wrong. I’m just letting you know, because there’s gonna be things that happen that we didn’t foresee happening. But the idea is that we have now built in the habit of being able to plan and when things come up, we’re able to pivot. So first and foremost, I’ll just say getting that idea of your mind that everything’s gonna be perfect and a close second, I would say is unfortunately I’ve seen, is that I’ve had too many people come to me where we have a great meeting and I’ve opened up their [00:37:00] eyes to a lot of things.
In that moment, they have some type of like feeling where like I have a, feeling of rejoice. I have a feeling of I can do this, I can do this, and they want to try to do it again by themselves. And I’m like, you gotta let that, it’s like, what is different than in a 30 minute conversation that we had when you go back to being by yourself.
So the part of that is knowing yourself and there’s no shaming getting help, but you can’t continue to do the same things and expect a different outcome. You gave them so much hope that they’re like, I can do this now. I’ve had this happen quite a few times recently, and now I’ve gotten more in the habit of being honest with people.
I’m like, I’m glad that we had a great conversation. I’m glad that you took a lot from it. But here’s the reality. Nothing’s changed in the 30 minute conversation that we had. You don’t have a plan. You don’t have a strategy. Nothing’s changing your habits. You don’t have somebody holding your hands. You, just feel good about accountable.
Just feel good about a 30 minute conversation. That’s it.
Barb: You were just too good at inspiring them, Brandon. was the problem.
Maggie: Yeah, that’s a great example is so often people find that they can do it by [00:38:00] themselves. And if you could, you probably would’ve already done it, right? And so having that extra boost, it’s great this isn’t just a Tony Robbins speech where we’re doing a little rah and moving on walking across the fire.
If you really wanna get there and secure that retirement, I mean, build that team and have them walk that walk with you.
Jessica & Brandon: The hard reality is that there’s a very small step into the population. There are true DIYers, and by that I mean you have the time, you have the will, and you have the knowledge on a consistent basis. It’s not a one-time thing. You’re gonna have to consistently do this through the rest of your life.
So do you have all three of those through the rest of your life, or would you be better served with having somebody help you with those?
Barb: And I would argue and add to that, I mean, everything’s changing, right? Laws change, taxes change, and you need to keep up with that or else you’re behind, you’re not making the best, most effective, or efficient financial decisions for yourself.
Why
not
work with the experts?
Jessica & Brandon: and also the thing is too, is everyone has a blind So everybody has their own emotional attachment to their money. And I even have [00:39:00] conversations with other friends of mine that are financial planners about our own planning to make sure that I’m not. Attaching too much of my emotion and I’m not missing a blind spot.
Maggie: Yeah, we see that all the time as planners need their own planners
Jessica & Brandon: Multiple minds are better than one. Well, and when you’re just always looking at the same thing from the same angle you lose that broader vision. You need somebody to come in with fresh eyes and to really. See what’s going on. It’s when you’re like writing your paper in college and you’re reading it for what you wanted it to say, but then you miss the typos because you know what you wanted it to say.
It’s the same thing. So you’ve gotta get your roommate or you know somebody to read that paper and point out the flaws because they didn’t know what you wanted to say, and they’ll see it clearly.
Maggie: Well, that explanation hit, home way too hard right there.
Jessica & Brandon: I always joke my, college roommate, I should have half of her degree because I did so much editing of her work.
Maggie: We all need a partner like that. ’cause trust me, I thought it was so clear. No, [00:40:00] but you guys, I mean, have such a great story and you’ve built this incredible partnership in both life and finance and we appreciate coming on and sharing your story and these great pieces of wisdom. And we do wanna ask you both the same question we ask every one of our guests on the show.
And that would be, what is your personal definition of financial freedom?
Jessica & Brandon: we’re probably gonna say the same thing. For me, I think it’s time. The more time that I can control and not be beholden to somebody else’s needs, wants, schedules, meetings, et cetera, the more I’ve quote unquote made it with my finances. And we are trying to be fully work optional in the next eight to 10 years.
He loves what he does and so do I. So if that means we continue to work kind of on our terms, then that’s great, but we also want the option to not work if we’re ready to. And so for us, it really just comes down to time freedom and making our own [00:41:00] schedule on a random Tuesday morning at 10. And when you have kids, that’s when it really hit me how fast times goes.
We have a 7-year-old and a 5-year-old, and honestly it feels like yesterday they were just babies. So being able to control our own time and use it the way that we want to use it and spend it with the people that we wanna spend it with is our number one goal.
Barb: That’s for sure. As I can tell you, sitting across from my daughter, time flies, right? That’s for sure. So time is an excellent answer.
Maggie: And so what’s the best way for our listeners to stay connected with you guys? Of course we’ll have everything in the show notes, but could you just kind of share with our listeners.
Jessica & Brandon: So you can go to our website, www.thesugardaddypodcast.com. You can get all of our episodes there or on Spotify, apple, anywhere you listen or where you listen to purse strings. We will be there as well. We drop new episodes every Wednesday. And then on social media, we’re at the Sugar Daddy podcast as well on all platforms.
And then also my financial planning website is. Www [00:42:00] dot Oak City Financial us.
Maggie: They didn’t let you name it the sugar daddy finances.
Jessica & Brandon: it does. His website does link to the podcast as well, so you can find him there. And then you can find Oak City on our social media as well. So we’re linking back and forth in all the directions.
Maggie: Perfect, Well thank you Brandon and
Jessica & Brandon: Jessica coming
Maggie: And sharing your expertise. So be
Jessica & Brandon: So be sure
Maggie: into their podcast as well. Give ’em a follow on social media and let
Jessica & Brandon: on social media and.
Maggie: that you listen to this episode. And until next time, we’ll talk to everyone again soon.
And so be financially fearless.
Outro: You’ve been listening to Women Money, the shit we don’t talk about. Now it’s time to take what you’ve learned and make bold moves towards financial independence. Stay in the know by joining our newsletter for exclusive tools, resources, and updates that keep you financially fearless. Head to PurseStrings. co and sign up today. Need a financial professional who gets it? Turn to PurseStrings Curated Directory, your go to [00:43:00] resource for financial experts who know how to put you first. Love this episode? Leave us a review and help us empower even more women to own their financial power. Until next time, be financially fearless.
YouTube