She Built a Business After Being Stood Up Abroad with Ally Pintucci
What if the trip you keep waiting to take is exactly what you need?
We are all guilty of it. Waiting for the right timing, the right stage of life, the right circle of friends, while the months quietly pass and the vaca never leaves the group chat.
In this episode, we haveAlly Pintucci, founder ofThe Girls Trip Series, a community of 37,000-plus women built on small, curated trips for women who hate tours. After nearly a decade in travel sales and operations, a layoff at 23, and being stood up in Portugal, Ally landed in a surf town that changed everything and launched her first trip, which sold out in 24 hours. She joins us to talk about the real cost of running trips, where pricing meets integrity, and why you should stop waiting to go.
What does it actually cost to run a group trip? More than people assume. Between scouting a destination and running it, Ally can spend 10 to 15,000 dollars of her own money before a single traveler pays. The margin is not in packing people in, it is in the experience, which is why she keeps her groups small on purpose.
Where does pricing meet integrity in the travel world? Ally is candid that the industry is murky. Some influencers white-label a trip that costs 2,500 to run and resell it for 6,800. She prices to reflect real value and real community, not to become the biggest travel company in the room.
What money decisions do women forget when booking a trip? The ones that hit late: visas, vaccinations, currency conversion, and tipping the local team. Ally sets those expectations up front, often a year out, so there are no painful surprises at the destination.
Should you wait for friends before you travel? No. 99% of the women who come do not book with a friend, and they arrive just as nervous as you would. As Ally says, not all friends are compatible to travel, and time stops for no one.
00:00 An anxious start and nearly a decade in travel.
10:30 Everything happens for a reason.
13:00 The real cost of getting a trip off the ground.
19:00 The application form that turns people away.
32:30 Scouting a brand-new destination.
36:30 The money decisions women forget.
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Barbara Provost, EdD and Maggie Nielsen, MBA are the co-founders of Purse Strings, a national platform helping women make confident financial decisions by connecting them with vetted financial professionals who truly understand women’s lives and money needs. Purse Strings connects women across the U.S. with vetted financial professionals who specialize in supporting women through divorce, money transitions, and financial independence.
Full Episode Transcript
(This transcript was generated using AI, so please excuse any misspellings or errors)
PS: Ally (Girls Trip Series) MP3
[00:00:00] I don’t know about my listeners, but I am personally loving these conversations about travel. We’ve had conversations about solo travel. We’ve had them about having a travel planner. And this one I was just most excited about because there’s so many places in the world that I wanna go see, and it’s kinda like, I’m gonna be honest, I don’t wanna go alone.
I don’t wanna go alone. It’s not just like sitting out at a cafe. It’s really just exploring these towns. Whether this is in Egypt or it’s going, to a, a [00:00:30] desert or it’s going somewhere in India. I mean, Whatever it may be. It’s just something like sometimes you’re at a place and you’re like, “Wow, I’d really love to be here with a really good friend or a partner,” and something like that.
And making all those timelines work together can stop us from traveling, and I don’t like that. I don’t wanna wait on somebody else to hold me back. So I’m excited to share Ally with all of you guys today because she really sets up the Girls Trip series. And so a group of women can go on these amazing [00:01:00] trips that she curates to go see some different amazing parts of the world and really connect with other women who have that value of traveling, want to go now.
And even like we talk about in this podcast, sometimes if you could get all your friends or whoever it may be, on the timeline with the budget, the time off, the childcare taken care of, not all of your friends are friends you wanna travel with and that’s okay too. And so really having that community around you who wants to do those similar things is so important, especially when you’re [00:01:30] spending that money to go on a great vacation.
The last thing you wanna do is, just do things that you don’t wanna do after spending all that money. So I’m so excited to have Ally on for this conversation and would love to hear from you guys what kind of trips you have planned soon or where you would love to go or how this podcast resonates with you.
So we do have a new feature. If you look on our podcast show notes, there’s a way that you can send in a voice note. So if you wanna share what your thoughts are, what questions you might [00:02:00] have, what you wanna talk about we might feature some of those voice notes if you allow it on our podcast as well ’cause we would love to hear from the community.
So send in your notes after you listen and I will see you on the other side of the episode.
[00:02:30]
Maggie: Welcome to Women & Money, the sh*t we don’t talk about. I am so excited to have Ally Pintucci on today, and she runs many things, but what we’re gonna talk about today is the Girl Trip [00:03:00] series. So before we dive into all of that, Ally, can you share a little bit about who you are and what you do and kind of how you got to building this community specifically about women traveling together?
Ally: Yeah. First of all, thank you so much for having me on. I haven’t been on a podcast in a while, and I’m excited to feel like I’m back. This is gonna be a bit of a long-winded story, so bear with me, and I promise I’ll bring you back to how the Girls Trip series started. But going back to when I left high school, I was one of those people that wanted to do so many [00:03:30] different things, and it made me very anxious to choose one specific thing going into university, ’cause I was like, “What if I choose the wrong thing?”
Ally: And it was like international development and relations, and like physical therapy, and working with athletes, and marketing, and I’m like, “I genuinely don’t know how to pick.” So I decided to take a stereotypical eye roll gap year. And then just as I was about to book a trip, I got contacted from a student travel company that was based in Toronto at the time, and I was like, [00:04:00] “Well, this is kinda cool.
Ally: Like, what if I just worked for a year, and worked in travel, and Figure it out from there. That gap year turned into the first almost 10 years of my career. I ended up landing in the travel industry doing sales and operations for almost four companies, like three and a half companies. I had a couple contracts.
Ally: And it was incredible because never in a million years did I think that was the industry that I would land in. I think a lot of people [00:04:30] think like, “Oh, how can I work and travel?” And you think travel agent. And that’s not really anything I ever wanted to be at the time. But it was so cool because I got to live and work and travel and experience all of these incredible countries at such a young age.
Ally: And then on my time off or during my time off, I would also use that time to travel on my own. So from like 18 to 23, 24, I got to work in the travel industry, and I got to experience a lot of countries on my own. [00:05:00] And to be honest, towards the end of it, I realized I hated working in sales. I, you know, at a young age, got into a really cool role of being director of sales and operations, and when you’re 23, like, that’s pretty exciting.
Ally: But I got put into that role when I was very sick of being in sales. It was … And anyone who’s in sales knows that you’re chasing money in a cycle, and you can’t really leave because when you think, “Okay, I’m [00:05:30] gonna quit now,” well, then I don’t get my back end commission. And so you wait for your back end commission, and then you’re like, “Well, I just sold the front end of this, so if I wait for that,” and, you know, you’re in these cycles just constantly chasing money.
Ally: And I had been mentally checked out for, you know, a couple years at that point, and I got fired from my job. And at the time, you know, 23, it’s very devastating, and looking back at it now, it makes so much sense. But, you know, when you’re a director, you don’t [00:06:00] really have room for mediocrity. You have to lead and plan, and you can’t coast.
Ally: And I was kind of I guess at the time, if I’m being honest now and taking accountability I didn’t, my heart wasn’t fully in it. And that firing was probably one of the best things that happened to me. I was 23, living in a brand-new city across the country at the time, and I had to decide what I was going to do from there.
Ally: The side stories of when that was all happening was like, I call it the good old [00:06:30] days of Instagram. You know, when you could like post at 7:30 PM with three hashtags, and then boom, like you’d get like 3,000 likes. And I was new to Vancouver in the Pacific Northwest, and new to hiking, and spent so much time outdoors, and started a personal Instagram page that got a lot of traction.
Ally: And at the time, like there weren’t social media managers at companies. There were no such thing as influencers. You were just genuinely posting about doing things and building community, and like meeting [00:07:00] other people doing the same thing and having so much fun. So I guess, you know, at that time in 2013, 2014, I understood Instagram very well, and I moved into the creative industry and social media marketing industry. And I worked on freelance projects. I worked on brand teams. I was taking courses. And I did this whole shift of now working in the creative industry, and I loved it until I didn’t, and I realized that the common- denominator in a lot [00:07:30] of these things was maybe I don’t want a boss.
Maggie: Vibes. I get it. I hear you
Ally: And keep in mind, like now I’m 28, so like I’m still a baby. Now in the story 28, not 28 talking to you now, I wish. And so I left that industry. So I left the creative industry to to basically go freelance. After I worked in an agency, I was like, “Agency life was not for me.” But everything I had done at that point was such a massive stepping stone and a, a very important [00:08:00] part to who I am today and how I got here today, because I don’t think I could be here if I didn’t have sales.
Ally: I don’t think I could manage clients the way I did without working at an agency, and it helped me with pitching. Like, every single role that I had really became like an integral part of who I am today. So I started freelancing, and anyone listening to this that freelances knows, you’re like, “I’m gonna be my own boss.”
Ally: Congratulations, you now have 25 [00:08:30] bosses. And freelancing was amazing. I focused a lot on doing commercial photography, and I was very blessed and grateful to travel the world and work for incredible brands like Air Canada, and The Four Seasons, and tourism boards. And I also shoot a lot of portraits and brand photos here for like entrepreneurs, and lifestyle brands, and people who need content for website.
Ally: And so, All while freelancing, I was still traveling quite a bit, and I would always continue to post about my travel even though my page wasn’t very active [00:09:00] as like a quote-unquote “influencer page.” And back in 2023 I had been dating someone in Europe for a few years. At that point, I was doing like a cute long-distance relationship.
Ally: It did not end cute, by the way. Basically it ended up with me being stood up in Portugal at like two and a half years into my relationship, and I mean, it was super traumatic, but you’re right. I was in Portugal, and it happened very close to the beginning of my three months that I was spending there.
Ally: And I couldn’t leave [00:09:30] because I was, like, shooting something for the Four Seasons. I had a wedding, so I was kinda trapped, and I’m like, “Okay, what am I gonna do?” So I heard of this small surf town called Ericeira, and I’m like, “Okay, I’m gonna go to Ericeira. I’m gonna just, like, hang out here, and while I’m in Ericeira for a few days, I’m going to plan a trip to Italy because, like, Italy’s gonna make everyone feel better.”
Ally: And I always wanted to learn how to surf, so I was like, “Okay, I’m gonna book a surf camp, and for three days, and then I’ll get the hell out of here.” And so I get to Ericeira. [00:10:00] Again, everyone raves about this town. And I get there and I’m like, “This place fucking sucks.”
Ally: And I think after realizing, you know, after a few days of being there, it, the place didn’t suck. It was just so quiet that I actually had to sit with everything going on in my life at the time. And the reality was I was going through a breakup. I was on the other side of the world. I was alone. A lot of things that I had been void- avoiding talking about in therapy [00:10:30] were coming up for me.
Ally: I wasn’t feeling fulfilled in my business, and it just kinda realized, “Okay, I’m at this crossroad, and now I’m in a very quiet place that’s very confronting, and now I have to feel it.” And I started connecting and working with an energy coach there that was recommended to me through a friend, and after my session with her, I felt like there was a weight lifted off of my chest, and I was sitting on my surfboard one day, and I’m looking at this coastline, and I’m like, from the water, I’m like, “This is [00:11:00] one of the most beautiful places I’ve ever been.”
Ally: And I’m like, “Wait, I love this place.” And my three days in Ericeira turned into five days, turned into seven days, turned into nine days. And as I was posting authentically about this experience, even though I had posted about hundreds of trips prior to this, the amount of women that started messaging me saying like, “I don’t know what it is that you’re doing on this trip, but I’m into it.
Ally: Can you share the details?” And back [00:11:30] in the original influencer days, I had an old blog called The Staycation Series, where I worked with clients to visit their tourism– like work with their tourism board to put together a staycation itinerary for people to experience here in BC. And then it spun off into the Girls Trip series, where I would go to cities and create like girls trips itineraries for people to do with their friends.
Ally: So my brain started like you know, swirling a little bit, and I was like… It was the first time in my life that I ever heard my intuition [00:12:00] say, “Go home.” And I didn’t go to Italy. I went home. I built a webpage, and I launched a 10-day trip back to Ericeira, Portugal, that was gonna take place a couple months later, and I was gonna call it the Girls Trip series.
Ally: It was going to be a series of trips that women could connect with like-minded women on and really just take time for themselves to experience travel in a different way than they– the different way that they haven’t experienced before, maybe that they were craving. [00:12:30] And so I just went for it. I launched it.
Ally: The trip sold out in 24 hours. That was September 2023, and we… And I say we, but it’s me. But it’s also we, ’cause like the girls that come on the trip, I– now I have women coming on their third, fourth trip with me. Yeah, I’ve done 11 trips so far. I have five upcoming. We’re– I’m launching so many more. And that was my 27-minute introduction of how I got to the Girls Trip series.
Ally: But [00:13:00] yeah, it has been the most fulfilling thing I have ever done, and it was just a very big lesson that everything does happen for a reason, and to really take advantage of the skill set that you have in front of you, because everything in your life, whether you realize it or not, really does play an important role for building your toolbox.
Maggie: There’s so much I wanna say to all of this.
Ally: I know. Sorry, I might derail this whole episode now.
Maggie: It’s okay. I mean, it’s just like clearly everything always happens for [00:13:30] a reason. And in that time we never know why, but it’s almost like thank you for firing me. Thank you for this not working out. And it’s funny how you still did all these different kind of categories of work without getting a degree or going back to school or all this stuff.
Maggie: You still were able to do all that and get to travel, which I feel like is every woman’s dream, especially while we’re younger, while we’re single. You know, it’s this newer thing of like, we’re not waiting until we’re 65 and retired. Like, I can’t learn how to surf then, you know? I’m gonna learn how to surf now when I’m physically capable, all these different things.
Maggie:[00:14:00] I also feel like I should go to an energy coach. I could really use that right now.
Ally: I can give you guys a plug for one that changed my life, but
Maggie: Yeah, I’m gonna need that name. Does she work?
Ally: She works virtually and she has containers for women from all over the world can work with her, and it’s fantastic.
Maggie: Yeah, when I came across your page and saw… Well, first let me throw it back and say I used to love the old Instagram days when things were so much simpler, and now it’s not the same. It’s just not the same. That’s all I have to say about it.
Ally: Yeah, it’s really not
Maggie: but there’s so much, I think, you [00:14:30] know, women, we are kind of afraid.
Maggie: Some of these places, you know, oh, it’s not safe to go as a single woman by yourself. You know, you wanna have these different things. We’ve had a couple other podcasters on share about how to do these solo trips and how to travel the world alone, which is fabulous. We’ve had travel planners so you can help and do some creative and unique things, and that’s what I was afraid you were gonna say about at your trip at first.
Maggie: It was just like an Instagram famous place, and that’s why it wasn’t as exciting. But it’s amazing to have these other women to connect with because sometimes, like, your friends don’t either have the budget, have the [00:15:00] time, they have kids. You know, like, we’re all in different stages of life, and so it is that commonality to really pull together, which is exciting.
Maggie: I saw your trip about Egypt and I was, like, checking my budget to see how I get on that one. But so you’ve now built this community that’s, you know, over 37,000 followers on socials. But I just kinda wanna talk behind the scenes. You got this calling to go home and to kind of start building this.
Maggie: What did it kind of cost you, like financially, logistically, emotionally to get this off the ground?
Ally:[00:15:30] Yeah. Well, the one thing I think that sparked it all, also just to note, is I built something for me. And I don’t mean for me to make money. I don’t mean to fulfill me. I built something for me, Ally, the consumer, the traveler. And I think going into that with that mindset really helped with problem-solving to understand who I [00:16:00] was actually looking for and who I was building for.
Ally: And I think that really helped me make decisions early on. Financially It’s different for every trip, ’cause at the beginning I, I looked at doing it, what is the least risk possible? So I look at accommodation first. I have to build my trip out of like, what’s it gonna be for the net cost per person to run this trip? And I have to look at things where it’s like, how do I do this in the [00:16:30] least risk possible?
Ally: Okay, I’m gonna find a hotel that it can allow me to make a reservation where I don’t have to pay until I get there. So right away now I’m putting something on hold, but I’m not spending $17,000 to hold that in case that trip doesn’t run. So for me at the beginning as this, that first trial trip, my upfront cost was actually quite low.
Ally: If anything minimal, because I built my website myself, I did my branding myself. I didn’t [00:17:00] actually have to hire anyone until it came to the actual trip of like, who are the suppliers that I wanted to hire to be a part of the trip that would feel like family and really make that trip very special.
Ally: And that’s an integral part of every trip that we run, and we can talk about that later. But things that you definitely have to look into is like, aside from what the net cost is per person and how much you as a business want to make, there’s a fine line of like making money and being in integrity.
Ally: I know that this industry is very murky. I see a lot of [00:17:30] influencers running influencer trips where they’re just white labeling an existing trip that costs, let’s say, 2500 USD to run, and then they’ll put their price of 6800 USD. And they can do whatever they want and that’s fine. I mean, is it? But,
Maggie: That’s a different conversation
Ally: That’s a different conversation. But no, for me it was like I didn’t have to put a lot of investment in at the beginning, but I did look into when building on top of my net price, what my cost would be to actually be there to run the trip. So if I’m there for two weeks, [00:18:00] outside from my flight, what are my food expenses?
Ally: What are additional expenses that I have to take on? If I’m there for two weeks and I’m literally on running this trip, well, I’m not working with any clients back home. I can’t take on any photo shoot gigs because I’m a commercial photographer on the side of this, or I should say simultaneously. So it just came down to, as any freelancer would kind of quote their business and their time, what is the cost of my time to be there?
Ally: And also where does that meet integrity, [00:18:30] where I feel like I’m charging a very fair price because I want people to actually see the value in traveling with me and build a community out of this. And this might sound like make me a horrible business person. I’m not looking to be the largest female travel company in the world.
Ally: I’m not. I set out with a mission and that was to build community and offer experiences to women and, yeah, trying to have fun doing it
Maggie: And there’s a point where it’s like, well, really in life I kinda wanna travel, and so if I get to [00:19:00] travel and make some money and, you know, pay my rent I feel pretty satisfied, you know? Do you feel like you’re still a, a traveler when you’re hosting these, or do you feel like I’m really on and this is, like, a lot of work?
Maggie: I mean, I know we enjoy our work, but Cause I know, like, hosting an event, they’re fun, but, like, events by the end I just need to, like, lay down and breathe, you know? And so I can see how it is not as just relaxing as maybe, like, oh, well Ally, you get to go on the trip. It’s like, yes, [00:19:30] and you know, I’m taking care of everyone, I’m making sure every, all I’s are dotted, T’s are crossed, all the things, so it can be exhausting as well
Ally: Totally. I think You nailed it in the sense where when you’re hosting something, you are always on. So like energetically, when that trip leaves Some- I will even go as far as to say sometimes I’m, like, depleted energetically. And, but at the same time, I’m so overwhelmed with, like, happiness and gratitude because the women [00:20:00] that come on these trips are unbelievable.
Ally: But you’re always… Like, we joke because I feel like when I come on the trip, I participate as a traveler because I never wanted to be like, “I’m your tour guide.”
Maggie: Right. Follow my flag
Ally: yeah, like we’re anti-tour. Like, my brand statement is, like, small curated experiences for women who hate tours. So I’m not like, “Hey, I’m your tour guide.
Ally: I’m the boss.” I try and simultaneously put myself as a traveler where I’m connecting with all of the [00:20:30] women and participating in everything I possibly can, while also making it very known, “Hey I’m here working. I’m here to serve you. I’m here to make this the absolute best experience I can for you.
Ally: So whatever you need and however I can do that on top of what’s laid out, you just let me know.” So yeah. Is it a dream? Absolutely. Am, am I tired after the trip when you’re just like, “Okay, now I have a chance to, like, breathe?” Yeah, because, like, you’re always the first one up. You’re the last one to go to bed.
Ally: You’re checking on it. And I become such good friends with the women [00:21:00] that come on each of the trips, and they always jo- I have this, like, joke where I’m like, “Are you guys mad at me?” Like, when I can see everyone’s, like, tired, I’m like, “Are you guys mad? We have, like, a long drive today.” And they’re like, “No.”
Ally: But everyone that’s come on the trip’s been amazing. And I think, too, having an application form is such an important part just to ensure the right women are coming on this trip. And speaking about money, travel is a massive investment. So, like, forget my business. Again, it’s like me, let’s put my consumer hat on.
Ally:[00:21:30]It is such an investment to decide to take a trip. And so it is… You need to make a decision on, like, am I choosing the best trip and the best experience for me? And I know I’m offering something and creating something that’s very different from a lot of other experiences out there. So I don’t wanna take someone and essentially take their money if I don’t think, like, energetically they’re gonna be a good fit for this type of travel.
Ally: That doesn’t mean, like, sign up this form. I wanna, like, see your Instagram and make sure you’re cool. Like, we don’t, I don’t run [00:22:00] influencer trips. It’s just, like, I look for the people that have traveled really well solo. And we talked about solo travel a little bit at the beginning. But when you’re younger, solo travel was so much fun because you would just meet people in hostels, and you would go to bars, and we’re not staying in hostels anymore.
Ally: Like, at least I’m not. I’m not as social as I used to be, and I’ve built something for women, I, I say, like, 30-somethings to 50-ish because it is energetic. But I want the girls that, like, when I [00:22:30] go on solo trips now, I’m kinda sad. Like, I wanna go to nicer places, and, like, I’m not meeting people the same way.
Ally: And I’m, like, experiencing these beautiful things wishing that I was experiencing it- Like, doing it with other people. So to find those women that are also, like, very self-sufficient and enjoy free time and want the ability to kinda wander off, but always knowing that, like, the activities we do are very intentional and, like, knowing that there’s always someone to have, like, dinner and drinks with or coffee with.
Ally: Like, that’s really special. Whereas, like, other travelers might [00:23:00] want, like, a crazy strict itinerary, a bit more hand-holding guidance, and that’s okay. But I wanna make sure that, like, you’re investing in the, the travel that’s going to change your life versus just taking anyone’s money
Maggie: And that’s what drew me in too. It’s like, it’s not all these tours, but it’s also not like, yeah, this full agenda. And as much as I love group things, like I need that introvert time to just be me, do me whether that’s just like walking by myself or whatever. So it’s not like you have to be with a group for 11 days straight.
Maggie: Like, absolutely [00:23:30] not. You don’t want me with a group for 11 days straight. Like, that’s not gonna happen. And so like, yeah, and you mentioned it is a big financial thing. So for women listening who wanna say yes but keep talking themselves out of it, what’s typically stopping them and what do you tell them?
Maggie: Do you find that’s usually like the money aspect, or is it more of like a, a fear or tell us what you get from the community. Yeah
Ally: I think a fear when you see a price tag is always scary. Like, let’s keep it real. Even if you weren’t coming on a trip with me and you wanted to [00:24:00] have a Euro summer, you’re spending thousands of dollars. It is a luxury and a privilege to be able to travel these days, so let’s just be transparent and, like, acknowledge that.
Ally: So is the price tag a, an issue or a hurdle or a, a sticker shock for some people? Absolutely. It’s gonna be with a lot of trips. So I think, like, one, finding something, knowing your budget for travel and finding something that’s going to fulfill you in that budget. Anything is possible. [00:24:30] And I’m taking off my girls trip series hat, and I’m coming to you from, like, a travel planner now, ’cause I, I have so many people come to me, men and women, families, corporate, and they’re like, “Hey, we wanna do a safari,” or like, “We wanna go to Europe.”
Ally: I can plan individual trips for people, and that’s the first thing. What’s your top? Like, what’s your line?
Maggie: Because it all adds up, those little things. I mean, I think about like, ” Oh, we got the flight and the hotels.” I’m like, great, that’s… Yeah, it’s a good chunk of it, but like all those excursions, all those meals, all the wine, all the [00:25:00] everything
Ally: I’m assuming majority of your listeners are American. I’m Canadian. I don’t know if you guys have ever converted to the Canadian dollar, but you, when you convert to the Canadian dollars you must be like, “Oh my God, that’s so cheap.”
Maggie: That’s exactly what I did when I looked at that on that trip. I was like, “Oh, 6,000 Canadian, that’s 4,700
Ally: Hair flip. Yeah. I need to find more Americans and Europeans to come on our trips because I– that was a [00:25:30] big thing for me when doing my girls trips.
Ally: Again, put on my consumer hat. As a Canadian, I cannot stand looking at like, “Oh, I’m gonna work with this coach. I’m gonna go to this retreat. It’s in USD. It’s 5,000 USD.” Great, that’s 8,500 Canadian. I’m out. So for me, I’m like, I’m gonna always price myself in Canadian, even if I have to pay suppliers in euros, in Moroccan dirhams, in USD.
Ally: I take all my pricing, and it’s usually USD around the world. [00:26:00] I take all my pricing, I put it together, I convert it to Canadian, and then I work in Canadian dollars. So yeah, pricing was like a big… I think like, I mean, it could be a hurdle for people, absolutely. It’s travel. Think another thing is like, yeah, how am I gonna…
Ally: Like, what’s the group gonna be like? How am I gonna be on this group? This is scary. What are the what are they like? What if we don’t get along? Girls always think too like, “Oh, girls trips, like they’re, it’s dramatic. Girls are gonna fight.” [00:26:30] And when I built this, I’m like, I wanna take the best parts on girls trips and put it into one.
Ally: Because when you talk about let’s go like to the drama of girls trips, well, let’s go to the root of that. Not all friends are compatible to travel And that’s not, like, a bad thing to say. That’s not subject to just women. That’s literally everyone. Not all friends are compatible to travel. I have friends that I would consider some of my best friends.
Ally: I love you. I’m not going on [00:27:00] a trip with you. I’m not doing it. We do completely different things. You’re gonna get mad at me if I don’t wanna do everything with you, and I’m telling you right now, if I’m spending $8,000 to go to Mexico, I’m not sitting on a resort. I’m renting a car. I’m driving around. I want to experience where I’m going.
Ally: So I think, you know, when people look at like, “Oh my God, what’s it gonna be like traveling with 12 other women? This must be the worst,” again, that’s why we have the application form. [00:27:30] 99% of women that come on this trip do not book with a friend, and they’re coming in feeling the exact same way that you are, scared sh*tless.
Ally: But I’ve tailored the application form to turn people away, if that makes sense. If you’re getting anxiety answering these questions of like, what would you do in situation X, awesome. Don’t come. There’s so many other tour companies out there that I think would be better suited to you, and I want you to be happy.
Ally: So yeah, I would say the [00:28:00] hurdle for people would definitely, one, be like, what is the price tag, and two, what am I getting myself into by signing up for a trip in like Morocco with 15
Maggie: And I think, you know, when you know somebody right away, you can’t start a fight with them that much. Like, what is there to fight about, right? But you all are all coming from this like, “I don’t know. Let’s see. I wanna have the best trip I can.” And so if everyone’s coming like, “I wanna make the best out of it,” it seems like all boats then will go in the same direction of just trying to make the [00:28:30] best, wanna have a good time, wanna travel and explore.
Maggie: I mean, it is pulling those like-mindedness together,
Ally: Yeah. And like when you’re on a safari in the Serengeti, how are you having a bad time? You’re experiencing very wow moments. You’re bonding people. And let me tell you, like I think at the beginning you asked something, you asked a question, something about like how grateful do I feel that this is my job or I was gonna say something at the time.
Ally: Like I’ve been traveling [00:29:00] for work, for pleasure for more than 50% of my life. And I have, like my first trip I ever did solo, I was 18. I bush camped in six countries in Southern Africa. And that, like we had a truck, and then our hotels at night were like the side of the road. We would put our tents up. And I was 18 or 19 when I did that trip.
Ally: That trip changed my life. That was the trip where I’m like, “Yeah, [00:29:30] I’m gonna do this for the rest of my life.” And being able to share so many of those moments with other people, like it’s incredible. The downside of it, and I try and like pinch myself a little bit to be like, “Hey, snap, like change your mindset.”
Ally: Do you remember how excited you were when you, like, went on your first solo trip or your first big trip, and like a week before you’re like, “Should I start packing?” And then you’re so excited to go to the airport, and everything is wowing you because you’re seeing [00:30:00] something for the first time. That novelty, sadly, I catch myself wearing off.
Ally: And I hate that. I hate that I catch myself, like, not being, like, blown away sometimes, and I’m like, “No, you have to reel that back in,” because that is the magic of being out there. So going… Like, putting together these trips for women I feel like has energized me, because to see those moments, going back to, like, what you said of, like, we don’t wanna wait for [00:30:30] other people to travel anymore.
Ally: And women are coming on these trips single, women are coming on these trips married, in committed relationships. Women are coming on these trips as moms. I’m telling you, the 30-somethings to 50-ish, it is the best group because you’re either going through something in your life that someone is simultaneously going through it with you, they’ve either just gone through it, or they went through it 15 years ago, and let me tell you, they have some advice for you.
Ally: And when you’re pulling together this [00:31:00] magical age range of women, and some people are like, “Well, how are you excluding everyone?” It’s like, I’m not excluding. There’s trips for 18 to 30s. There’s trips for seniors. It is actually okay to offer someone something exactly, like, that they’re looking for, that I felt was missing.
Ally: And to get this magical group of women together in, in such an important age, yeah, are we seeing incredible things? For sure. But, like, the bonding’s happening when people are in the kitchen at night, like, drinking wine. [00:31:30] Or when, like, the three girls that are up super early in the morning are having their morning coffee together in Portugal, like, sitting in the Atlantic, like at, looking at the sun come over the Atlantic Ocean.
Ally: Or when we’re in the middle of the fucking Sahara Desert, and, like, we’re in luxury tents in this, like, glamping thing, and there’s, like, these soaring dunes around you, and people are just, like, crying because they’re just like, “Where the fuck am I?” And we hit this age group, [00:32:00] and you said it yourself people are moms, people have careers, people are freelancing, people can’t.
Ally: PTO, vacation time, children. How do you get your friends together to do these adventures?
Maggie: Much less all those friends that you could travel with, you know? Then it just keeps getting smaller.
Ally: Totally. So that’s exactly what it is. You’ve hit this point in your life where you’re it’s… No, I’m not saying it’s impossible, but I think it’s more common than not for women to be like, “I don’t [00:32:30] have the friends that wanna do this.”
Ally: And even if you do, then you’re getting into, again, time of year, budget, can’t get the… It’s like there’s memes about it. Can’t get the trip out of the group chat. That is, is so common. Or like for me, you know, I just came out of a relationship. Like, I loved my boyfriend, my ex-partner to death, but like, we couldn’t get experiences together.
Ally: And like, that was such a big thing for me, is like I still want to experience things and I’m not [00:33:00] gonna not go. Why, I’m just gonna not experience my life because like I can’t find someone else to go with? And so like, fuck it, we’re going. I’m gonna plan the trip for us and I’m gonna find the girls that are like, “Yeah, I don’t wanna wait anymore.
Ally: I do wanna do this. I’m not getting any younger.” Time literally stops for no one. Okay, I’m gonna go on the trip. And so my trips kind of have transformed. They were very like loosey-goosey at the beginning in terms of like flow of the trip. Lot, not a lot of [00:33:30] structure. As the trips became a bit more bucket list, they became…
Ally: I don’t like to call them tours, ’cause I was like anti-tours, but I call them my more structured trips. So like those are the overland trips when you’re going through Egypt or Morocco or like I’m about to launch a Sri Lanka Maldives trip
Maggie: I need a tour if I’m going through Egypt. I can’t lead myself through the dunes.
Ally: But we can like make it a cool like a cool tour, you know? But yeah, I call them my structured trips. And strangely enough, but not so strangely, those are the ones that have been the absolute [00:34:00] bestsellers. And because they are at a higher price point, I just launch them earlier in advance and give women the opportunity to do a payment plan to make it more accessible, and launch it without, “Hey, we’re going to the Maldives in three months.”
Ally: It’s like, “No, we’re gonna go next year. So take the year to save and pay it off.”
Maggie: Yeah. And I mean, you’re also paying for, like, you to curate the whole trip and plan the whole trip. I mean, that’s half the battle, right? And so having someone do that, do the research, do the stuff for you, I mean,
Ally: And people don’t realize what it costs for [00:34:30] me to run these trips. We touched on it a little bit, but like, yeah, it’s fine when I’m running them in a, in Portugal or my costs are pretty low. I have a flight and, like, my time and my you know, spending while I’m there. But, like, let’s look at developing a new destination.
Ally: Okay. Well, I launched a Tanzania trip two months ago. At the end, prior to me going, I went to Tanzania
Maggie: Oh, so do you always go before you host a trip?
Ally: Usually, so at the beginning, all of these trips [00:35:00] were based off of my favorite solo travel experiences. So I knew a destination really well. But I can only do the same trip so much.
Ally: And there are some trips that, like, I’m not going to be… Like, respectfully, I’m not gonna be like a white girl taking a bunch of girls to Morocco being like, “I’m the expert.” I’m not. What makes my trips so special is the local team that I hire that become our family. Like, we call… it’s all, I try and hire women where I can, but for the most part, when I’m abroad, a lot of these, in some of these countries the teams are men.
Ally:[00:35:30] And like, I call them, we call them our trip dads. And like, when I talk about Yusuf in Morocco, I, he feels like family to me. And like the best part about Morocco is like Yusuf showing us his home. And we’re, us getting to see a different part of Morocco that you wouldn’t see if you were just flying to Marrakech and like taking a bus to the Agafay desert to ATV.
Ally: Great. If you have seven days and that’s all you can do, fine. But like the magic is like meeting a local family and going to a market with them and cooking dinner in their home. And [00:36:00] you know, hearing stories that, you know, from locals when we’re doing experiences and not booking through like a third-party DMC that like has their office in London, England.
Ally: So when I talk about the cost of running these trips, I had been to Tanzania before, but I also can’t just go to these trips and open a business there. Like there’s visas, you have to, like I have to hire a local company. So it’s like who is that company? And what are they about? And who am I supporting?
Ally: And I wanna make sure I’m [00:36:30] grassroots and as local as possible when I’m building these trips. So I got contacted by a guy who owns a safari company in Tanzania, and he was absolutely incredible. And he’s young as well, and he’s out there doing what I’m trying to do and build an incredible business.
Ally: And yeah, I went over to… we spent time on Zoom and built this incredible trip together and then he was like, “Okay, I’ll host you. Come, come run through the itinerary. We’ll we’ll make sure it’s good.” But like it still cost [00:37:00] me 6,000 to fly there. It still was two weeks that I couldn’t work and take on photo shoots.
Ally: It was still all my spending money while I was there. So let’s say that trip cost me $8,500. That’s $8,500 before that trip even runs next year. So that comes out of your profit. And like not to mention it’s gonna cost me another 5,000 to like fly back out there. So just for that trip alone people are like, “Oh, you must make so much money.”
Ally: Well [00:37:30] no, I’m gonna spend between the scouting and running it 10 to $15,000 just my expenses. So it’s not like… Trust me, if I was a millionaire doing these trips
Maggie: Life
Ally: wouldn’t be selling for what they’re selling.
Maggie: And you keep them small, which is great, but some of those prices can only be divided so far between, you know, it’s not being divided between 45 people. Thank God, ’cause I wouldn’t wanna come with 45 people.
Ally: You… when you see [00:38:00] these other tour groups where it’s like, “Yeah, you’ll be with 25 to 30 people,” it’s like, well, that’s why you’re making money because your money is in the volume. And same with the trips, the other travel companies that I worked with.
Ally: All of our money came through volume. And again, there’s nothing wrong with it, but I just didn’t wanna be what was already out there
Maggie: Yeah. No, that makes a ton of sense. Putting on more of your, like, consumer hat, when women come to these trips that you plan, are there, like, financial decisions most of them are not thinking about until it’s too late? Do you find [00:38:30] anything similar come up there?
Ally: Yes and no. I think I try and get ahead of that where because they are booking a year in advance, I kinda just say like, “Here’s what to expect. Here’s when…” You know, if you’re booking, for example, our Tanzania trip for 2027, travels end of May 2027. I launched it two months ago, so they have one full year until departure.
Ally: That’s a really long time. So the benefit to it is if you don’t wanna pay in full, that’s great. There’s a payment plan that allows them to [00:39:00] slowly pay their trip off. And then I kinda just say, “Here are other things you can expect while you’re on the trip. You know, this trip is great because you have your room and board included.
Ally: You’re really not spending a lot of money on the ground there unless you’re gonna add an extra excursion,” and I can list those out for them in advance, so they’re like, “Okay, I wanna do that.” If they don’t book an upgraded photo package, but, like, I’m a photographer, so that’s amazing thing is that I can offer photos to the women on the trip.
Ally: If they don’t wanna book a full upgraded package, I’m like, “Okay, if last minute you [00:39:30] wanna book a photo package as, like, memories, this is what it will cost you.” Other things, you’re gonna need to do a visa. You’re gonna probably have to go to a travel clinic to get your shots. You know, I recommend setting aside 20 to 30 US dollar per day, and if you’re there for nine days, that’s 30 times nine.
Ally: Like, that should be your tip that you’re giving at the end. Not to me. I never take tips from any of my travelers. That’s to, like, the local team. And your driver’s with you literally 24/7. Unless you’re at the lodge, like, [00:40:00] they’re just taking care of you, and our driver and our guide, I couldn’t imagine our trip without him.
Ally: Again, these people become family to us, so that’s what I… I try and list everything that I can in advance so there’s no surprises last minute where women are like, “Oh, fuck I shouldn’t have…” You know? And that’s, that is a big thing. You spend so much money when doing any trip that you think, “Okay, so many of my costs are up front,” which they are.
Ally: But, like, again, what are you what’s the cur- currency conversion for [00:40:30] you? How much are you gonna wanna spend? What activities are you doing when you get there? Are you a partier? Are you a drinker? Are you… Again, these are to generic to all travels, not just my trip. What excursions are you gonna do?
Ally: Do you like to shop? Like, these are all kind of things that are like, what am I going to want to do when I travel, and how much should I set as- should I be setting aside for that as well?
Maggie: Yeah, I think all those great things are, yeah, they’re easy to forget and then later, yeah, you need that cash, which none of it [00:41:00] adds up to as much as you probably paid for the trip. But like those people who you are with every day, who are the boots on the ground people, I mean, those are the ones you want to ensure that you’re tipping, that, you know, are really seen and valued.
Maggie: I mean, yeah, the flight’s the flight and it’s the cost of the flight, but like these people who you’re with who are making and breaking your trip, like you want to make sure that they feel seen as well, which is really important. And then, yeah, those visas, which is a great thing about you booking those out a bit more in advance is that time to file for those visas, passports, shots, all those things, [00:41:30] because not every place is just like going to Portugal for 10 days or something where it’s not as necessary, and changing political climates, you never know what you’ll need these days, so just kinda being prepared there.
Maggie: Before we ask our final question, do you wanna share like some trips that you have coming up that maybe people in our community can join or where they can learn more about it?
Ally: Yeah. So again, the company is called The Girls Trip Series, and I’m sure you’ll link all of the stuff for people to follow. I won’t spell it out. But yeah, for [00:42:00] 2026, for the rest of this year aside from Egypt, all of our trips are sold out, which is sad for new listeners, but also exciting for me. So if you do have some time and you wanna travel at the end of November this year, we have two spots available for Egypt.
Ally: And then in 2027, I’m going to be launching a bunch of new trips. So all of our current 2027 trips are sold out, but at the end of September, I’m gonna be launching a Sri Lanka Maldives experience, which I’m very excited for because Sri Lanka [00:42:30] is just a beautiful country with so much to offer from small surf towns and incredible coastline to safaris to see elephants and leopards to, like, tea farms and misty mountains and train rides and incredible food and people.
Ally: It’s such an amazing destination, and the fact that it’s only an hour-and-a-half flight from the Maldives, I think, like, most women listening probably think, like… I know it’s the same. Like, Maldives to me is, like, romantic, so unless I’m going on some, like, honeymoon with a cute boy, like, probably not ever gonna go.
Ally:[00:43:00] And again, same mentality. I’ll plan it for us. The girls are going to the Maldives. So that’s actually gonna launch at the end of September, early October for 2027, if women are interested in learning more about that. And then we’ll also probably relaunch trips for, like, the gorilla… hiking to see the gorillas, another Morocco adventure.
Ally: Yeah, there’s so much coming up in the pipeline, and I just kind of, like, post as we go. So if you check out our Instagram, and obviously the link in our bio will kinda show what’s available and what’s coming [00:43:30] up.
Maggie: Yeah I love going through your Instagram. I mean, of course it helps that you’re a photographer, but everything is so great and just like, I’m like, “Oh, wow, these trips just look fabulous.” So Ally, there is a question we like to ask all of our guests on here, and with all of your experience from your different jobs, traveling the world, what does financial freedom look like to you?
Ally: You know, that’s a really hard question because I feel like that answer evolves so much over time. And I think when I was younger, I’m like, “I wanna be rich enough to do anything.” But I think [00:44:00] the older I get, it means freedom. And I think I like the answer freedom because freedom can mean something completely different to anybody.
Ally: And, you know, freedom could be like, I’d love to pay all my bills and not feel, like, strapped about it. I’d love to, like, be able to pick up the dinner tab for my girlfriends when we’re out and not sweat about it. I’d like to be able to take a few days off and, like, do a trip when I want to be able to do a trip.
Ally: And [00:44:30] yeah, so I think for me, like, financial, like, being able to breathe, you know, and not feel stressed when making decisions in my wallet
Maggie: I love it. I love it. Well, I thank you for coming on, sharing your expertise, making this amazing community so the girls can get out there and get traveling. I hope to see you on one of your trips soon. And until next time, be financially fearless.
You spent your whole career building someone else’s brand. What happens when the title, the salary, and the identity get taken away overnight?
In this episode, we have Jess Lane, founder of The Full Cup Co., the career design company for the future of work. After twenty years in marketing and advertising for names like Procter and Gamble, Porsche, and The RealReal, Jess was laid off at forty in a mass reduction and applied to 496 jobs before deciding to build something no employer could take away. She joins us to talk about designing your next chapter, future-proofing your career in the age of AI, and why your worth was never tied to that spreadsheet.
Is the 9-to-5 really going away? It is changing fast. LinkedIn co-founder Reid Hoffman has said the 9-to-5 could be extinct within a decade. The takeaway is not panic, it is that work is being redefined, and there are real ways to future-proof yourself for what comes next.
How do you future-proof your career against AI? Lean into what is most human. Strategy, intuition, creativity, and human storytelling are becoming the most valuable skills. Use AI as a tool, but do not try to sound like it. The more human you are, the harder you are to replace.
What is career design, and how is it different from a side hustle? Career design starts with your unique blueprint, your motivators of autonomy, connectedness, and competence, then builds a sustainable path around your life. A side hustle is usually just extra income without that foundation. As Jess puts it, side hustles are often “hustley,” while career design builds the career meant for you.
How do you financially prepare to leave a stable job? Do not leap and hope. Leaping is not a strategy, an exit plan is. Look at ROI and risk differently, turn the unknowns into knowns, and build a plan with real timelines and numbers. Investing in yourself is what makes the leap sustainable instead of scary.
Ready to design your next chapter? Join us for the next Money Talks. Click here to registerfor FREE and bring your questions!
Have questions? Click this to check out our expert Q&A for tips from industry experts, tailored to help women address their most common financial concerns.
Subscribe to our newsletter to receive financial tips delivered weekly here!
Barbara Provost, EdD and Maggie Nielsen, MBA are the co-founders of Purse Strings, a national platform helping women make confident financial decisions by connecting them with vetted financial professionals who truly understand women’s lives and money needs. Purse Strings connects women across the U.S. with vetted financial professionals who specialize in supporting women through divorce, money transitions, and financial independence.
Full Episode Transcript
(This transcript was generated using AI, so please excuse any misspellings or errors)
[00:00:00] So when I got out of school, or maybe I was still in school, and they tell you to do these like informational job interviews with people, and I talked to this neighbor who I knew worked at one of the Big Four. I think it’s a Big Four. And I was like, I knew this place had like intense job interviews, all this stuff.
And this man was like, “Oh when I went to school, they just gave my resume to this company. The company called [00:00:30] me, hired me, and I haven’t been anywhere else since. So I don’t have an updated resume, and I honestly don’t think I could get the job now if I had to go through the interview process that they have right now.
But I would recommend you just apply.” And I don’t know if it was ’cause he was just an older white man or what, but I was like, “This is insane.” Because now it was like a five-part interview, and this man has been [00:01:00] at this job forever. And I knew then that times were changing. And I’m still just astounded.
I think about him more than I should. But all that to say, times are changing. We don’t have to be loyal to these companies forever because we know we can be fired in a matter of minutes. Just let go because of downsizing, AI, all these different things. And so we wanna be prepared for that next step.
And that’s not hoping for the worst, but it’s planning for what’s next and what fits [00:01:30] our life and what we wanna do. And so I am so excited to have Jess on today as she helps people build this plan for the next step, whether that’s, preparing to leave a company, maybe start a new company, find a job that resonates more, whatever it may be.
But we know nine-to-fives are not as secure as they used to be. We don’t stay at these companies until we die anymore. And so it’s really having that next step, especially if you’re in that mid-career, like 40 to 60. So I think this is gonna be a really exciting [00:02:00] episode, and she’s full of facts and stats and all of that good stuff, which we love.
So tune in, and I can’t wait for you guys to meet Jess.
[00:02:30]
Maggie: Jess, welcome to Women and Money: The Sh*t We Don’t Talk About. And today we are gonna be talking about some sh*t I don’t think we’ve talked about before. So before we dive into all that fun, can you share with our audience who you are, what you do, and what led you to build The Full Cup Co.?
Jess: thank you for having me. My name is Jess Lane. I’m [00:03:00] founder of The Full Cup Co. I call it the career design company for the future of work, and I work with executives who are ready to design their next chapter. So I have a program called the Strategic Executive Exit. That’s a ninety-day program, and basically that is both your landing and your launch pad to design your future of work, and we look at all of your different options, including what’s possible for you outside of a nine-to-five.
Jess: And then I also have a smaller ninety-minute sprint version of that called the Career Design Clarity Session. But all are based in my framework, which is the Full [00:03:30] Cup Method. And that really sits at the intersection of my work of psychology and my marketing background. So the CliffsNotes on how I arrived here are really, I had twenty years in marketing and advertising, and I went from big to small.
Jess: So I started off on Procter & Gamble, Porsche, MillerCoors, and then I went to The RealReal, where we went IPO. The last company I worked for, we reached billion-dollar unicorn status. I led the brand launch for that, and then I was laid off in late 2022 in a mass reduction. So I really rode the high highs and the low [00:04:00] lows, especially at the end with tech.
Jess: I was forty when I got laid off, so between our reflective moments as we get, into that generativity versus stagnation stage, just as humans and human development, plus the market being what it was, I’d applied to four hundred and ninety-six jobs, yeah, when I was let go. And so I was noticing the trends and the data, which I had done for my whole career on behalf of other products, and I was just making the product myself, and I was [00:04:30] looking around and thinking, “Wow, the market has really changed.”
Jess: So I decided personally to get my master’s degree in psychology. It was a life bucket list item for me. And then I founded The Full Cup Co. And like I said, my work is really grounded in the intersection of my background of psychology and marketing to help design that framework to help people design their next chapters.
Maggie: I love it. Yeah, there’s so much to dive into here. I am still, like, just stuck on you applying to all those jobs. I mean, I know even when I got out of school, I, like, went back to the career [00:05:00] company. I think I told you this before, and I was like so I applied to like 100 jobs and didn’t get any yet.”
Maggie: She’s like, “That’s a great start.” And I was like, ” Oh,
Maggie: okay.
Maggie: Not the answer I thought you were gonna give me.” So whoever’s looking for a job out there, keep your head up
Jess: Yeah, well, I think it’s because those numbers look so different than they used to. Yeah. You know? And especially from how our, we grew up just seeing our parents and all of the things, you know? So it’s just it’s the t- change is happening at this sort of like [00:05:30] expedited speed, if you will
Maggie: Right. And so I wanna dive into all of this. So you’ve built, like you said, at the highest levels, Fortune 500, IPO, unicorn companies. What was that moment that you realized that the traditional career path was not gonna be enough for you? Or is that kinda when you were let go and then you’re like, “Wait a minute”?
Jess: I always think everything’s sort of a combination of factors, and I think we’re at this unique moment in time, which it is, and I think everything’s related, which I know you and I have had separate exchanges on careers and finances, of course. But nonetheless, [00:06:00] yeah, it was the market, it was the four hundred and ninety-six jobs moment.
Jess: And as I started to get multiple hundreds into my little job tracker spreadsheet, and I know this is the number because I went back into the spreadsheet. But as I started to get further down that list and just sit with the facts as well as listen. And like I mentioned, so we have the market, we have the human development stage.
Jess: So I was about forty, forty-one when I got let go. When we hit about forty to about age sixty-five, actually, we call that the [00:06:30] generativity versus stagnation stage. That’s based on Erik Erikson’s human development stages. So it’s basically natural human development outside of AI, outside of the current job market.
Jess: So again, you have this layered effect, especially for folks now in midlife. And for me, I also knew it was when I listened to myself and I reclaimed that worth. That would’ve been the third thing, is just really listening. Every cell in my body was saying, ” Don’t go back,” like, “You’re worth more than this spreadsheet is indicating.”
Jess: And we need to maybe pull back [00:07:00] from just the resume, pull back from that identity a little bit, as difficult as that is, and pay attention to what the numbers are telling us. So truthfully, when I got really real with the numbers
Maggie: what did you feel like kind of in your body or, like, how’d you keep going? I mean, h- like, I feel like a lot of people look at that and feel deflated of, like, ” People don’t want me. I’m not worthy,” like these different things when you’ve done all this amazing work.
Maggie: I mean, how’d you not feel down and out?
Jess: Yeah, I think a lot [00:07:30] of it is in the reflection, not only of those experiences and what they meant to you, but also understanding the role that you played in them. And then also a fun little career psychology tactic is you can look at each of those roles and experiences and think about like the micro narrative, like the little story.
Jess: Each of our job roles, right? Like even when we were a barista when we were 16 or whatever we did, right? Like has a little story and has a little ditty about what we loved, hated, what we learned, what have you, what we took away from [00:08:00] it. And I think once I started to do that and realized certainly I’d always worked on teams, and so I never did anything alone-alone, but realized the critical role that I had played and all the value that I’d not only taken away from that, but then also applied in other environments, my themes, what was true for me in every role and in those specific roles and looking at those results, ’cause again, the numbers don’t lie.
Jess: So taking that worth back I think is the biggest thing, and realizing they can take away a title, and yes, they [00:08:30] can take away a salary, but a lot of that value is a lot of commercial value people are sitting on that they don’t realize
Maggie: In c- to kinda know like, well, this is what worked for these big companies, I mean, to hire somebody who’s also been in those companies is like great for that next person ’cause you kinda know the ins and out, what works, what doesn’t, how to test it.
Maggie: I mean, that is so much value there where I’d be like, “Ooh, let’s hire her ’cause she’s worked with these big names. Like she knows what’s going on.”
Jess: You would think definitely some of the brands that I had worked on would have helped me in the next chapter, but I think you’re dealing with a lot [00:09:00] of talented people on the market, and that’s kind of what struck me the most was I was let go with 150 talented peers.
Jess: There are thousands of amazing talented people on the market right now that have decades of experience. And I think some of the irony of this, not to go on a tangent, and you, you drive the bus. But what I will say is I think I sent you that Financial Times article that was all about sort of especially midlifers and there is this associated shame with not being what was used in quotes as unemployable in [00:09:30] midlife.
Jess: And what I think the irony there is, is these folks have the most employable skills in the age of AI because technology is evolving at such rapid speeds, we actually don’t need to be all that technical anymore. We just need to know how to use AI, and we can be trained on how to do that. Our strategy, our intuition, our decades of experience and analyzing and creativity and shaping all of– and telling stories, human stories those are [00:10:00] gonna be the most valuable skills.
Jess: So it’s almost sort of like we’re letting go of the most valuable people, and I think those people are gonna go on to realize their value, just like I did, and go on to create more and different value in the world and figure out how to commercialize that in different ways.
Maggie: Yeah, and part of this article that you were sending that we both read was that about women or, but just people in general, like kind of 40 and over were kind of through AI getting kicked out of the job search, you know. So they weren’t [00:10:30] hiring people older, which I was thinking the same thing of like these are people who have been in business, who know how to talk to others, who’ve like had the experience, and part of me is like, well, maybe they’re worth more and they’re just trying to get a lower price range.
Maggie: But I was just so shocked by that and you know, some of these people were then looking for jobs, blowing through their finances and different things, so kind of had to think about a different way to go about it because it’s like they’re hitting their end of the rope on their savings and that’s unexpected and really the time where we want to keep those [00:11:00] investments invested so we can definitely get out of work by 65 or 70.
Jess: Right. and I think one of the key takeaways to all of that was we have to think differently both about how we plan for our finances and our careers, and they’re intertwined, and we’ve known that. But I think the difference is societally, societally, systemically, we’ve grown up relying on a nine-to-five for that.
Jess: So we’ve sort of outsourced that without even knowing it. I didn’t realize or ever think I’m outsourcing my [00:11:30] worth, I’m outsourcing being the CEO of my business because I’m capping my salary, and I’m putting my faith in someone else. But I should say and when you’re young, it’s wonderful to get experience.
Jess: We need experience, so I don’t regret anything, and I still think it’s wonderful for young people. But yes, specifically this midlife stage we have to think differently, and that’s part of why I think the exit plan is a really good solution and just in general, considering how do I future-proof myself in [00:12:00] a way that doesn’t allow an employer to take everything away from me.
Maggie: It’s definitely not the you stay with a company until you retire anymore, and that loyalty pays off, and all of that stuff that our parents experienced. You know, it’s so different from that. And I know this Reid Hoffman, he said, I don’t know if you guys know him, but the 9:00 to 5:00 will be extinct by 2034, which it’s 2026, so less than 10 years.
Maggie: So for women who have built their whole identity around the corporate career, what does that actually [00:12:30] mean? And should they be scared or excited? ‘Cause I could see a lot of people being like, ” Crap,” or a lot of people thinking this is opportunity, you know. And it’s a little bit more than glass half full or glass empty.
Maggie: But give me your insights here.
Jess: well, if you don’t know who Reid Hoffman is, I didn’t actually be- like, before I started doing deeper research into the field. He’s the co-founder of LinkedIn, so he’s sitting on a ton of data, and I think that’s why we care who he is. You know? He just– He’s sitting on, like, more job data than most humans.
Jess:[00:13:00] And if he says the nine-to-five is gonna be extinct in less than ten years, that’s an interesting statement to me. So it means that work is changing. I think the overall takeaway is that the glass is half full here, right? It certainly depends on how you look at it. It doesn’t always feel that way, and it’s a little bit of both.
Jess: It’s scary. You know, I don’t have a glass ball to predict for you, but if you really sit down and you really look at transferable skills and what we’re looking at in terms of future-proofing ourselves, there are [00:13:30] definite avenues that each and every one of us can take to future-proof ourself, and that looks totally different for everyone.
Jess: So for executives who have built their entire identity around their corporate career, you actually kind of have to flip the script, and step number one is just ditch your resume. That’s really uncomfortable for a lot of people who have especially associated theirselves with their titles and the companies they’ve worked for.
Jess: Instead, you need to start with your unique human blueprint and everything that makes [00:14:00] you, and there’s two reasons why we do this. Number one, following our intrinsic motivators, which we uncover through this unique blueprint, and there’s a process for that is based on decades of research to lead us to more success, longer-term success, and well-being over time.
Jess: Our intrinsic motivators are autonomy, connectedness, and competence. So do we have a choice in it? Does it mean something to us? And are we good at it? Those are [00:14:30] intrinsic motivators. That’s why we start with our unique blueprint. We’re not starting with what company is offering what title or what salary.
Jess: The second reason we do this is monetary, because it’s the best way to differentiate ourselves in the future of work. We do not want to sound like AI. It’s the best way to future-proof yourself. The more human, the better. You can use AI as a tool, but we really have to change the way that we think. So I think the overall takeaway here is flip the script and actually start with yourself versus the [00:15:00] market.
Jess: You can figure the market out, but that is, I think, the key differentiator, and it goes along with the financial planning advice that we’re talking about too, which is start with yourself, don’t outsource it.
Maggie: Yeah, definitely. And it seems like so often people are like, “Well, what jobs are out there? How can I make my resume fit that?” But it’s really doing that backwards of like, “What do I wanna do? What makes me happy?” Because I think there’s sometimes where we work so hard to find a job, and we finally get in there.
Maggie: We’ve been working so hard, we took whatever is available, and then we get that job, and [00:15:30] it’s like, it’s horrible, you know? And it’s like we put in all this energy to find this position that really isn’t a fit because we didn’t look at ourselves first. We just kinda said, “What slots are open, and where could I kinda fit in?”
Jess: Right, and you’re limiting yourself. You know, I kind of use this idea of like why default when you can design? So it’s a yes and. You’re not throwing anything away. You’re just thinking about how do I build something for myself that an employer cannot take away? Risk and ROI look a lot different these days, right?
Jess: It’s like putting your whole pot into a 9 [00:16:00] to 5 that you probably know is not gonna last you your entire career. Now, okay, that changes the game. I think we slowly started to see that as I didn’t take a job for 20 years. I took more jobs like a couple years, five years here, you know. So not not couple month stints, but you know, choppier than say previous generations.
Jess: Like my grandfather worked at a bank for decades and that’s just how it went. And so, yeah, it’s sort of slowly evolved, but now AI is really sort of just expediting that. But yeah, [00:16:30] it’s just a totally different approach.
Maggie: And so how is this kind of like unique blueprint and designing your career based on your unique blueprint different than just starting a side hustle or doing something of that? ‘Cause I feel like there is some differentiation there, and people can kind of mush those together in a way that’s not quite it.
Jess: Yeah, for sure. I think there’s a lot of people and a lot of discussion, and rightfully so, around, like, doing your own thing and just, like exiting corporate or tech and sure, but to your point, [00:17:00] there’s differentiation in a ton of different ways that you can actually do that. I think there’s also a lot of different definitions of side hustles, but usually those are more passions or income streams, and by definition, maybe that someone doesn’t truly have enough time for, or probably rarely has gone through more of this holistic filter of laying that proper foundation for career decision-making, aligning that with the future of work, and designing a sustainable business model against it that also fits around your lifestyle and wellbeing.
Jess: Career design is more [00:17:30] that, you know. Side hustles are usually side hustley. They’re hustley. And they don’t have as much of that thoughtful and purposeful end and therefore aren’t as sustainable, right? But career design looks to design the career that was meant for you because it can only come from you.
Jess: So it’s just a more purposeful and holistic approach that’s meant to last for longer.
Maggie: Well, we’d like something that’s sustainable. You know, that’s always the goal. And so there is a real financial fear, of course, financial podcast, that comes with leaving that stable income, right? [00:18:00] So how do you help women kind of think through this money side of that transition without panicking?
Maggie: I mean, everyone always called them the golden handcuffs, right? But you got that income, you got that insurance, you got the match, you got … I mean, even as an entrepreneur, I’m like, “God, I have to pay my personal into Social Security and then what the company would pay into Social Security when usually the company’s paying that.”
Maggie: So it’s just a lot more things that add up, which makes people fearful reasonably
Jess: Oh my gosh. Well, obviously this is a crux of the conversation and a crux of many [00:18:30] conversations, and most, to be honest, because when we’re thinking about our careers, it’s like our careers are not just our careers. They’re a central pillar, if not the central pillar of our lives just because they dictate so many other things.
Jess: All the things. So I think honoring the fear and knowing that usually fear is the unkn- it lurks in the unknown, and when we move the unknown to the known, that’s helpful, and just kind of acknowledging that is really helpful and having a place for that. [00:19:00] So we use a few different strategies, but I think the first thing goes back to what we mentioned before, which is you have to look at ROI, risk and investment differently than we did before.
Jess: And leaping isn’t a strategy, so I’d never tell you to quit and hope for the best or just go follow your passions. We’re taking a look at, yes, alignment, but then we are taking absolutely a look at the market, and ideally we’re building an exit plan. However, if you don’t have that luxury, we’re getting it done quickly enough that we’re compressing that messy middle [00:19:30] anyway.
Jess: So number one is mindset, looking at ROI, risk, investment differently. And number two is that building an exit plan because that is a strategy, not just leaping or quitting. And I think this idea of investment in yourself before it’s too late is really just important for folks to consider.
Jess: It looks different for everyone. But we oftentimes are giving so much to others that we really need to just think about, okay what is the best [00:20:00] way for me forward and what does the investment in myself look like? And so sometimes that takes a look at looking at our lifestyle and prioritizing or working with a financial planner in more depth to say, “I do wanna go out on my own, and what’s a smart way to approach this while I’m planning my exit strategy?”
Jess: But in short, we open with the five key pillars of wellness to my program, which include financial, and it’s less of a how much money do you have in your bank account, and [00:20:30] it’s more like, how are you feeling about where you are at, and what needs to be true in order for you to move forward? So having folks like you in my back pocket’s really important as well experts to help.
Jess: I think honestly the biggest thing, Maggie, is first thing ROI, risk, and investment look a lot different these days.
Maggie: And so kind of going into business, was there a money belief that you had to completely unlearn to kind of make your leap?
Jess: Yes I think I had to understand that both things could be true at once. [00:21:00] that there was no, no investment lost on the p- on the first 20 years, that we could create value out of that still. It wasn’t taken away with the job title. And I had to look at that investment strategy differently moving forward.
Jess: That was tough. No, I was just… That was tough after 20 years of doing it one way to just really have to look at the reality of things and be like, “I actually [00:21:30] think it’s time to change strategies, and I actually think even though it seems a little wild right now, the numbers are saying that’s actually probably a better strategy.”
Jess: Again, given my specific situation
Maggie: What’s coming up for me is like we make this huge investment in ourselves, like 18 to 21 with college, right? I mean, this could be 50 to $100,000 we invest in ourselves, and then from there on, we just like ride the train until the train kind of pushes us off, [00:22:00] right? And what you’re saying is like redo this investment at 40.
Maggie: I’m not saying maybe $100,000, but like you have to like re-up and re-skill, and we are not the people that we are at 18, and the path might look different and the, the twists and turns might not have led us to where we thought we might be at this time because is anyone where they thought they would be when they were 18 and making those decisions and never worked?
Maggie: Like, it’s so different, and we have no question about making that big investment. But then sometimes people look at us like we’re crazy, older, [00:22:30] taking this turn, doing different education, hiring someone, or we feel guilty about investing that money when to me, that’s the time it makes much more sense.
Maggie: You understand how the world works, what bills are, what income we’re looking for, what we like to do. I mean, there’s so much more grounding there, but no one questions you as much when you’re 18. It’s just this funny dynamic, and so I like when you say investing in yourself. It’s like, let’s do this now again when we understand the world and we’re not just babies.
Jess: Ugh, [00:23:00] I love that, like, comparison to college because, yeah, I, One of the very first podcasts I appeared on, Dr. Matt Markley we talked about, like, some people will spend the equivalent on, like, a winter vacation, and we love a vacation. But it’s interesting when it comes to, yeah, personal or career development or like you’re saying, versus riding the train, and that kind of comes back to some of the, like, defaulting to designing- Yeah
Jess: and just some of, again, where we’re at and how the world of work is changing. But I totally… I couldn’t agree more, and [00:23:30] I think w- what we’re going to probably see is this idea of as people also continue to live longer, I think the idea of a linear career will potentially phase out or just look very different.
Jess: And the way that people go about work is just gonna change drastically. So I think you get to lean into your weird and be a little bit more creative, ’cause that’s what the future of work will reward, and I think that’s freeing. But it does take a lot of like, “Oh, I used to have to be fit into this resume and fit [00:24:00] this,” ba da.
Jess: And it’s like, “No, now we need you to be different.” And so again that, the mindset piece is sort of a weird experience for a lot of people at first, and it sort of takes people a second, I think, who are thrust into it via a layoff, a minute to be like, “Oh,” shake it off a little bit- … and shake it out and get out of the snow globe or whatever the analogy is and be like, “Oh,” you know, kind of look up and think, “Oh, there’s a lot more going on in the world.
Jess: There’s a lot more options than I used to have.” The barrier to entry’s a lot lower to do some other [00:24:30] things, but it does, again, require support and looking at… and different strategies.
Maggie: And so tell us a bit more about how you work with people. Is this to help people, like, launch their own companies, to get into new careers, just kind of have this backup just in case they do get fired? Like, give us a little bit more grounding on, like, really what it is that you help people do
Jess: Well, it’s all of the above because basically it’s your next chapter designed for you by you. I give you a framework that’s based in the best of psychology [00:25:00] and decades of marketing and go-to-market experience. So, basically the framework helps you, again, to identify that unique blueprint and then we go figure out how to wrap it.
Jess: So what makes sense, everything from how we position whatever you wanna offer to what is the actual offering. We hold hands, we prototype it together, we dip our toe in, and then we create that transition architecture, which is part of what we’re talking about, which is financially what needs to happen, time-wise what needs to happen.
Jess: Where are you in the world? Are you still working? You [00:25:30] know, are you laid off and you can start right away? That looks a lot different for a lot of people. And then what are those next steps? So, that’s what that framework looks like. You can do that in 90 days and go from start to finish in 90 days with that.
Jess: Or you can get the preview, because what a lot of people like is, “Hey, I just want my options.” And you can do a career design clarity session, which is more of like a sprint. That’s a 90-minute session. So you have about an hour of pre-work. You go through some of the same upfront, and then you get a future [00:26:00] of work forecast, which is basically like, “Hey, here are some really unique, distinct paths you could take.
Jess: If you wanna move forward and do the full 90 days, great. If not, you have a great idea of actionable next steps you could take to future-proof yourself.” And that’s, again, a 90-minute commitment, which is awesome for people at a much lower price point. And those are the two core components of how I work with folks now.
Jess: And then for folks that are ready to do like a brand build and really wanna go out and like launch their brand into the world, great. There’s a little launchpad that we can do that uses some of my [00:26:30] marketing and really builds that out. But the career design components are really the 90-day and the 90-minute program.
Maggie: And who do you find is like the majority of kind of people taking this? Women similar to you kind of in their 40s trying to figure out what’s next?
Jess: Yeah I’ve been surprised at how many males have been interested as well. But definitely the old Jess for sure has been the majority of folks that I work with. So, I’ve gotten a lot of old coworkers as clients, and I have also found a lot of [00:27:00] clients on LinkedIn that just resonate with the content and me sharing my story.
Jess: So yeah, usually folks that have worked in corporate or tech and are directors, VPs, and have accomplished quite a bit, but they’re looking at the future of work and wondering about that investment and ROI piece and thinking they’ve built a lot and that maybe they could look at what’s next for them but they’re not sure where to start.
Maggie: I was only in corporate for a little bit, but my favorite thing was just to get rid of all the corporate clothes. All the button-down shirts that weren’t me, all these, like, dress pants [00:27:30] that I would never wear. I was just like, this was just a person they wanted me to fit into, and that’s not me.
Maggie: And it was just like com- coming out of there, I was like, “Actually, if I run my own business, I can wear whatever I want, and it’s not gonna be these gross dress pants.”
Jess: freeing things. When I think about peace and freedom, I’m like, “You know what? I just don’t wanna be rushed to walk my dog.” You know, and that reminds me, I’m like, yeah, like I don’t need the, the dress pants are not necessary. I love the dress pants thing too, because that’s such a real thing. The other thing you just being free, I think, to make your impact.
Jess: You know, [00:28:00] like I’m able to say what I wanna say on LinkedIn because I think it helps a lot of people. And another thing that you just said too was like, this is just it. Like that reminded me is like, this is just an act, and when you think about the idea of like performance leadership or performance reviews, it’s like a performance is a performance. It’s an act.
Maggie: no actor. That’s not
Jess: Yeah. You’re wearing dress pants because you’re acting in a role, you know? And so, yeah, it is. It’s like, it’s interesting ’cause we’re [00:28:30] showing up playing these roles, and to a certain extent we’re filling a job description, but with it comes all of this other stuff and then we become this person that we’re like, “Wait a minute.
Jess: What?” So you can see how that happens because we’re using terminology that like encourages it almost.
Maggie: Definitely. And so for a little like action step for those listening right now who know something needs to change but doesn’t know where to start, what are like one, two, maybe three steps they could take this week to start moving forward?
Jess: Yeah, I think definitely get [00:29:00] in touch with your values and then I think do a little bit of that career narrative exercise just to reflect on meaningful experiences that you’ve had. Think about also life experiences, because the biggest way that you can differentiate yourself in the future of work is going to be that unique blueprint times a human problem that you can solve.
Jess: So I think if you do the values, the unique blueprint, and thinking about what types of problems you care about solving those are some really good things to get in touch with, as well [00:29:30] as looking at some of the practical nature of where are you with your finances and just your overall well-being and doing a little bit of a energy check as well as reality check there.
Jess: Because if you combine both sort of how you’re feeling with the realities of what are in front of you, those are uncovering some things that we don’t think about every day and allowing you the freedom to go from there. Acceptance and understanding where we’re at is a first step to move forward, and I [00:30:00] think that sometimes can remove some of the barriers to even taking the best next step, which is to just understand where we’re at honestly.
Maggie: That’s a big one. I mean, just knowing where you are. Some people, I mean, we always talk about this, like even on your money and your income, people are like, “I actually don’t wanna look in my bank account.” And I’m like, “Well, I can’t say you’re gonna improve if we don’t have a measuring goal of where we started, and maybe the number’s low, so we could easily boost it up.
Maggie: Like, who knows what it is?” Or maybe you’re pleasantly surprised is also, I’m like, it could be way better than you [00:30:30] imagine. You just never know.
Jess: Yeah. But you have to start somewhere. So yeah, I think it, it sounds very basic, but sometimes with busy professionals and life gets busy, It’s harder to make the time to just listen and kinda check in on where we’re at. But then at least you know where you are, and you can go from there
Maggie: So Jess, there is a question we like to ask all our guests before we wrap up. And now with everything that you’ve been through and now being an entrepreneur, what does financial freedom look like to you?
Jess: I think it’s the [00:31:00] ability to be able to take control of your livelihood and your wellbeing and not have to default or outsource that
Maggie: I love it. Nice and simple. I love that. Well, thank you so much for coming on today and sharing your expertise. Of course, we’ll have links to all your information in the chat so people can connect with you just follow you on LinkedIn, have those 90-minute sessions or do that 90-day program.
Maggie: And yeah, we appreciate you, yeah, coming on and doing all the work that you’re doing as it is a changing world, especially with AI, and so we are [00:31:30] excited to have someone who can help us stay on top of it
Jess: Thank you so much for having me. It’s been awesome.
Maggie: Of course. And until next time, listeners, be financially fearless
How to Turn Your Passion into a Six Figure Side Hustle with Ashley Neidert
Most women start a side hustle to make a little extra money. Ashley Neidert started posting videos and built a six-figure business. She is here to tell you exactly how she did it and what nobody else is going to tell you before you start.
Meet Ashley Neidert, full-time cat content creator, pediatric doctor of physical therapy, and the world’s only pet content creator coach. Through her brand Petfluencer Secrets, she helps aspiring and growing pet creators turn their pages into real income through brand deals, YouTube, and scalable online revenue streams. Known for its honest, no fluff approach, Petfluencer Secrets focuses on strategy, storytelling, and sustainable growth, giving creators the tools and confidence to build a profitable pet brand without relying on viral moments.
In this episode, we pull back the curtain on what it actually looks like to make real money as a pet content creator. This is not the highlight reel. This is the 4:00 AM Starbucks run, the algorithm shifts, the taxes nobody warned you about, and the real income timelines you need to hear before you start.
You will walk away with a clear-eyed, no-fluff picture of the pet influencer world, plus practical steps to start building your own channel the right way.
Want to start a side hustle? Join us for next week’s Money Talks “The Tax and Money Moves You Need to Make Now” Let’s talk about the financial side of actually running it. From estimated taxes to business structure to keeping your books right, we’re covering what every woman building a side income needs to know. Click here to registerfor FREE and bring your questions!
Have questions? Click this to check out our expert Q&A for tips from industry experts, tailored to help women address their most common financial concerns.
Subscribe to our newsletter to receive financial tips delivered weekly here!
Barbara Provost, EdD and Maggie Nielsen, MBA are the co-founders of Purse Strings, a national platform helping women make confident financial decisions by connecting them with vetted financial professionals who truly understand women’s lives and money needs. Purse Strings connects women across the U.S. with vetted financial professionals who specialize in supporting women through divorce, money transitions, and financial independence.
Full Episode Transcript
(This transcript was generated using AI, so please excuse any misspellings or errors)
PS: Ashley Neidert (MP3)
[00:00:00] Social media is like the life these days, right? Everyone’s on it, and so many people talk about being an influencer and how much money you can make off of there, which great, we love it. But I wanted to really dive into how easy is it? I mean, I’ll be transparent. The dog content goes over much better than any financial content.
People love to go on Instagram or TikTok to get the drama, to get the pets, to get the cooking, maybe a workout. [00:00:30] The funnies, really. Nobody really wants to get financial information. But what does it look like to actually post your pet and make money on there? I did make an account for my dog, Sparky which was short-lived, and I realized how much dedication you need.
And after doing all of Purr Strength, I realized what dedication is really needed to maintain any social media account. So when Ashley reached out and she helps people be pet [00:01:00] influencers, I was like, ” We’ve got to get this on the podcast,” because it can be a great opportunity for those who don’t wanna show their face on social media.
It can also be a great opportunity just to have your pets fund themselves. We know they can be expensive. I’ve been to the vet where it is five grand, and so man, if the pet could just pay that themselves, that would be really fantastic. So I’m excited to have Ashley on, share her expertise of what is all included in being a pet [00:01:30] influencer and how we can make money doing it.
So let’s dive in.
[00:02:00]
Maggie: Ashley, welcome to Women and Money: The Sh*t We Don’t Talk About. This is gonna be a great one because I am a sucker for pets. So before we dive in, let’s share with the audience who you are and what you’re up to
Ashley: Okay, there’s a lot to this. So in general, I am a full-time cat content creator, and I am the essentially [00:02:30] the world’s only pet content creator coach. So I do both of those things, but by trade I’m a pediatric doctor of physical therapy and with all that, my life is super chaotic.
Ashley: But it is so fun because I get to not only literally make a full-time income off of my cats, but I get to literally work with hundreds of content creators who are, you know, trying to figure out this world of side hustles. So yeah, it is so fun.
Maggie: Okay, so like how many cats do [00:03:00] you have?
Ashley: So I have two cats,
Maggie: that’s a good limit
Ashley: Yeah, so one is Chip. We call him the famous one. He’s the one who started all of this. He’s Chip the Manx, so he’s technically the world’s most famous Manx cat. And it’s Manx. It’s M-A-N-X. A lot of people get confused with Minx, M-I-N-X. And then we have Biscuit. She’s our second cat, and I’ve had a lot of people joke.
Ashley: They’ve asked they’re like, “Did you just get a second cat so you can make twice as much money?” I was like, “No, no, no, our cat Chip needed a friend.” But she does have her own channels and [00:03:30] her own socials as well.
Maggie: Of course, of course. And so let’s kinda start from the beginning. When did you go from, like, posting cute videos of, “I got this amazing cat,” to, like, “This could be real money, actually”?
Ashley: Yes. So I actually am going to take a few steps back before the cute videos. So I uh, was in therapy schools years ago, and if you’re familiar with how expensive graduate school is, it was about $100,000 for just in-state tuition. [00:04:00] And at the time, about two years in, I started freaking out because I actually did the calculations, unlike a lot of people in school.
Ashley: I actually did the calculations and started freaking out about how much it was gonna actually cost after graduation. And with graduate student loans, they start accumulating interest the moment you take them compared to the undergrad loans. So that was also terrifying watching that grow really fast. So I actually at the time had started a finance blog.
Ashley: So I was blogging about money and just my journey of [00:04:30] learning about money, how I was working. I made some YouTube videos. You can’t look it up anymore. I deleted everything. But I know, it was so amateur back then. Nevertheless so yeah. So it was my journey for about two and a half years of this blog of learning literally the absolute basics.
Ashley: What on earth is active income versus passive income? You know, like, what on earth is stock investing? Like, the basics that I just didn’t know. So I was doing all that and learning how to make a little bit of money off of it from, like, the YouTube Partner Program and from affiliate links and stuff.
Ashley: So at the time, [00:05:00] I was like, “Oh my gosh, I can actually make money online. This is really cool.” So then, okay, so like I said, I did that for about two and a half years, and at the end of my school by graduation, I had gotten this cat. And I was like, “Okay I’ve learned how to make posts by now. I know how to do basic stuff.
Ashley: Let me start making videos of my cat.” So I started posting about him, and very quickly I learned that people love cat videos. And so I started posting more and more. Very quickly, again, I realized [00:05:30] that you could actually monetize from it. Now, there was a point where I had a mental shift, and I decided that this was going to be something that I was actually going to pursue, and that was literally…
Ashley: I was going through orientation at a job, so again, like, right after school. And I was… I remember this was orientation week, and I was sitting by myself eating lunch, and I was on my phone. I got accepted into the TikTok, like, Creator Fund. And I saw immediately that first day how much money that I made.
Ashley: It was around, like, $90 [00:06:00] in a day just from my cat videos. And I just stared at my phone, and I was like, “How on earth? Like, how is this reality? So at that time, I, again, I had this mental shift where I decided I’m going to actually pursue learning this, figuring this out, understanding marketing and sales and copywriting.
Ashley: Oh my gosh, so many things that I’ve had to learn over the years. I’ve been a content creator for seven and a half years now. Over time, I’ve learned all these things and figured out how to turn it into a [00:06:30] six-figure income.
Ashley: And then not just that, but then turn into a coaching business as well
Maggie: That’s amazing. And so I, this was a question I wanted to ask is, like, is there opportunity to really make that six-figure income for most people without… Like, I know you have the coaching, which is, like, an additional thing, but just kind of with their pet you still made six figures
Ashley: So thankfully, I actually have, like, multiple examples of, I guess, proof of individuals that I have coached. I can’t just say, “Oh, yeah, it’s just myself if you do just exactly what I do.” Like, there are multiple ways. [00:07:00] So the answer is yes, but also one thing I actually really appreciate about your podcast is you guys do talk about, like, the very real, like, we’re not sugarcoating stuff here, and I don’t wanna sugarcoat the reality of what it’s like being a content crea- like a full-time content creator because it’s extremely hard.
Ashley: I’d say what’s most challenging about it is a lot of people get into it like I did with a full-time job, and you’re trying to do it in the evenings and in the weekends. And the problem with content creating is it is a nonstop job. You [00:07:30] cannot stop. In fact, one thing that I teach is that if you don’t post for about three days, all of a sudden you are going to be demoted in the algorithm, essentially.
Ashley: And so no matter what you have going on in life, you have to be proactive, you have to be scheduling content, you have to be learning. And the world of influencing is ever-changing. Another thing I tell my clients is the reality that What you do today is going to be absolutely different in six months from now, like the way you target, the way the platform is, and [00:08:00] that’s just hard.
Ashley: So going back to your question of is it really possible? Yes, you just have to be hyper strategic. So excellent example of a girl who told me just recently, she actually is an Amazon influencer with pet products. So she has two cats, and what she has done is she… Okay, this is really cool how she does it.
Ashley: So she gets free samples on TikTok Shop of expensive pet products, such as automatic litter boxes, pet cages, things that cost hundreds of dollars. And then what she does is she makes [00:08:30] videos on TikTok Shop, and the product, like the brands, will pay to push the videos, so then she gets commission off those videos.
Ashley: Then she takes that product and she posts it on Amazon, and she gets about 10 different pieces of content per product, photos, videos, et cetera. And through just those, she only has around like 12,000 followers but through just those, she makes 10 to $12,000 a month. So that alone, it is wild.
Ashley: And then there’s another girl who I’ve recently talked to ’cause she just had a…
Ashley: we call them [00:09:00] our wins, so we talk about our wins in our group coaching, and she recently talked about her win of, it was purely through brand deals. So, without really getting into how all sponsored and brand deals work what I advocate for is when you do have a lot more followers to do longer term partnerships that are three to six months long versus doing just like one video here and there.
Ashley: And with those I always structure them to be like a $10,000 plus package, essentially. And she was so excited to be able to announce [00:09:30] that she had just hit six figures just doing a few of those $10,000 packages throughout the past year. And so is it reality? Again, yes, but it’s not the reality for everyone because if it was, everyone would be doing it.
Ashley: I know like everyone and their mother’s trying to be a content creator, but not everyone is a six-figure content creator
Maggie: And I appreciate, like, that transparency. I mean, you c- you shared about how, you know, you learned more marketing. You looked, you learned like copywriting, you know, all the things. It’s not just like, “Wow, [00:10:00] I love this video. Let’s post it,” and, you know, this pet product is gonna reach out to me. Like, it’s not A to B to B to C.
Maggie: Like, it’s also not one income stream. Like, yes, it’s influencing all at once, but it sounds like you’ve done TikTok, TikTok Shop, which may be different, I’m not clear, Amazon. I know you have, like, Instagram, then there’s YouTube. So it’s like multiple streams that add up, but it’s still, like, diversifying, like, like investing.
Maggie: But yeah it’s never just one thing, one platform, just a [00:10:30] post. And like you said, my God, you have to keep posting. And I know batch your content, do the thing, but, like, man, if you get sick, if you wanna go on vacation, like, you can’t take a step back. And a lot of people are like, “Oh my God, it’s just posting a video,” you know?
Maggie: And you’re like, “It is so much more, though.”
Ashley: Yes. I feel like it is so much more. It, there truly is so much to it. There is. Yes. So a lot of times, and I get this very often especially when people are like, “Mm, do I actually need coaching?” Or, “Oh, do I actually need to, like, take a course to learn this?” And I’m like, [00:11:00] “Okay, you definitely can spend one to two years figuring this out, learning it all.”
Ashley: But through my lens of how much I’ve had to learn to get to the point to now where I can just watch a video and know exactly what to change, exactly what needs to be fixed, exactly your target audience, like, all those things, it takes so much time. Because it’s not just, it’s not just learning the platform, and it’s not just creating the content, posting the content.
Ashley: There is, you have to learn how the algorithm works, how your target audience works. You have to [00:11:30] think and learn so much of, like, the psychological basis of things compared to just the basic technical aspects of clicking the buttons, videotaping your pet, and posting it.
Maggie: You have to learn to keep up with it as well. Like you said, everything changes every six months, so you have to either have a coach who’s paying attention to that, or you have to pay attention to that of like, ooh, we’re changing from reels to carousels, to longer videos, to shorter videos, to trending audios.
Maggie: Like, who knows what, you know? It’s always something else.
Ashley: there’s actually right now a big shift happening [00:12:00] between, So there was a big shift when we went from TikTok to Instagram, and now there’s a big shift happening from Instagram over to YouTube. I’m seeing this with brands, collaborations, I’m seeing this with creators talking about their frustration with meta platforms.
Ashley: So yeah, it’s never ending. It is never ending, and that’s hard because a lot of things, a lot of times what happens is you spend all this time learning, learning, learning. You’re experimenting, you’re trial and error, and then you finally think you figured it out, and then all of a sudden things are shifting on you again, which again, it’s one of those realities of like, do you have the mental [00:12:30] and emotional capacity to take on this side hustle where you know you can’t just like, almost like hit repeat and just be able to, you know, keep getting, say, the passive income or something.
Ashley: Like, you actually have to actively be involved of it, in it constantly
Maggie: Yeah it’s really crazy. And so were you, like, recommend kind of chasing just best videos to go viral? Or, like, is there more of a method to the madness that, like, you know, slow and consistent is better? What are you seeing out there?
Ashley: I’ve [00:13:00] learned after actually myself going through, like, different coaching programs and courses, I’ve learned that my niche is just different, so I will just share about my experience. And so when it comes to the pet niche, posting about our dogs and cats and birds and turtles and stuff, it is actually a very emotional and relational niche.
Ashley: So it’s not just about, you know, people posting about their fitness stuff or their health stuff and their cooking videos. Like, ours is just about creating emotional connection [00:13:30] with your audience. And storytelling, being able to get someone to actually not only emotionally connect with you, but think about your channel and share your channel and actually be invested into your story is the biggest skill that anyone can learn or try to figure out when it comes to being a content creator.
Ashley: Because nowadays, people just want to feel good. We’re actually entering into what is being termed the cozy content phase or the cozy content [00:14:00] era, where as content creators and influencers, we unfortunately actually need to shift away from highly edited content very structured, voice-overed, you know, content, and actually shift into very hyper-authentic content, original audio.
Ashley: And that’s the type of content that’s actually right now doing better than the, like, heavily edited content.
Ashley: So the days of hypervirality of what I would call, like, 2020 to 2023 are behind us. [00:14:30] So nowadays what, and especially, like, this is literally what Meta has even just put out and told us, and what YouTube has told us too, is that virality is an entirely different game now. It is about your channel engagement.
Ashley: So thankfully, I do have examples of pet content creators who do this, they’re not huge content creators. Like, I would call them, like, a 10,000 to 40,000 follower range, and yet they have insane engagement with their viewers. Versus honestly, my channel, one of my channels that has, like, 125,000 [00:15:00] followers, unfortunately, because he’s been around for so long and a lot of my chunks of followers, they are gone.
Ashley: They’re not engaged. So when it comes to, like, chasing viral trends, that is behind us. Those days are over. And in fact, it’s all about, again, building that emotional connection and trying to get every person who subscribes to you actually watching your content Because what happens is after about three times they’re shown your content, if they do not engage with your content, they’re not going to be shown your content almost ever again[00:15:30]
Maggie: It’s crazy. Like, I know those people on my feed. I’m like, “Didn’t I follow them? Like, why don’t I see anything from them anymore?”
Ashley: Yes
Maggie: It’s a lot. It’s a lot. So if someone wants to start making money from content but feels stuck, like, what are a couple, you know, one or two simple actions they can take to kind of get that momentum going?
Ashley: Being in the space of influencing, there are so many ways to make money. And it gets extremely exciting but extremely overwhelming when you try to figure out where to start. And I’m gonna actually split [00:16:00] this into two different categories of your active income opportunities and your passive income opportunities, because again, totally different avenues and totally different outcomes.
Ashley: So your biggest active income opportunity is through brand collaborations and sponsorships. This is not just obviously in the pet niche, but this is, you know, across any influencer niche. And that’s just because brands will pay hundreds to thousands of dollars for one video. It’s wild, and it’s still a very big reality.
Ashley: But you do have to at least have a higher follower count. You at least [00:16:30] need, I would say to even make $100 on a video, probably about 10 to 20,000 followers. So that is hard if you’re brand new, for example. So that is like the biggest way to make active income.
Ashley: From there, you have other active income opportunities through like meta bonuses things that are like you do one time and you get that money. But a lot of the ways to make money are actually passive income opportunities. So I mentioned TikTok, TikTok Shop. TikTok does have a way for you to make money off your content if it’s one minute or above [00:17:00] which is kind of challenging.
Ashley: There’s TikTok Shop, which was very, very popular for about a year, year and a half, and actually is getting a lot less popular mostly because the problem with TikTok is it is such a shoppable platform that it actually annoys a lot of people. Like, you want to research or learn something, and all you see are ads, ads, ads, ads, ads.
Maggie: Well, And so many people’s content is an ad, which I get you guys are getting paid for, but I was like, “I just wanted to follow her,” and now it’s like a food
Maggie: ad, you know?
Ashley: Yeah, no, it is the [00:17:30] consumers, the general people, and even me, we all can tell if a video’s an ad very, very fast. But yeah, so there are things like the TikTok Shop. There’s Amazon Influencing, which is one of my favorites because no one really talks about it, but it’s a super easy way to, like, reuse your own content.
Ashley: From there, one thing that I actually remind a lot of people is that when you as a consumer see those videos that are, like, hyperviral, like on Instagram. Let’s say it has a million views. The content creator’s actually not making money off of that, which is crazy because [00:18:00] I think we’re conditioned to think from, like, 10 years ago where if a video went viral, they would make, you know, let’s say thousands of thousands of dollars.
Ashley: Then there’s a YouTube Partner Program, which of any of the passive income opportunities is my favorite because it is more predictable, and it’s been around the longest. So you know that you can predict the, in the future that you’ll be able to earn that money.
Ashley: But yeah. So those are kind of, I’d say, like, the biggest ways to make money and where people would start. I right now am a huge proponent, like, just right now since we are shifting [00:18:30] from Instagram to YouTube, I’m the biggest proponent for being a YouTube content creator and making money through the YouTube Partner Program and doing brand deals over there if, again, someone were interested in actually getting into this and trying to make money off of it
Maggie: I’ve heard a lot of great things about YouTube, and I think people like that it’s not connected to the Meta platform. They’ve also been around for a while, so I feel like they’ve got most of their things down pat, like their processes and stuff like that. But you see, I mean, I see so many people who get a pet and wanna start making videos, and [00:19:00] sometimes those pets no longer are puppies, and they might stop or…
Maggie: But, like, to have something that pays just to cover your pet bills can be amazing. Like, dogs, oh my God, they eat something, and you’re like, “Oh, that’s a two grand surgery right there.” You know? So I’m like, God, even if you could just pay for your own bills, that would be amazing
Ashley: I essentially guarantee people that if they at least follow the process, which I can definitely give a little bit of a tidbit of how not to start a pet channel.
Maggie: Yeah, give [00:19:30] us what not to do
Ashley: I can essentially guarantee that not only would it at least just pay for those bills, but it will pay for their food, maybe their litter, like at least maintaining.
Ashley: And some people are like, “No, I wanna like go part-time. I wanna go full-time doing this.” And again, we can definitely like go into the realities of what that can look like and timelines and all that, because I’ve seen it. But I did mention just a little ago, so if you want, I can go into like the things…
Ashley: Like, if anyone were actually interested in becoming a pet content creator, like what not [00:20:00] to do. Like what not to do, because There is something that I continue to see people do over and over and over again that just, I don’t know, it just kills me.
Maggie: Let’s hear it. Come on
Ashley: Okay, so there is like a community.
Ashley: And again, all I have is my experience with the pet niche, so I don’t know if this exists outside my niche, but it is very prevalent within the pet niche. So first off, the majority of people who I have found who become pet content creators are actually this like, [00:20:30] let’s say 30 to 50-year-old crowd. Mostly it’s these individuals who have…
Ashley: You know, they’re struggling with the career that they’ve chosen. They want, they need, let’s be honest, they need extra income. And they’re just trying to find something where they’re, don’t have to participate in social videos like the Gen Z’s are.
Maggie: I was gonna say that’s the generation that does not wanna show their
Maggie: face.
Maggie: They
Maggie: think it’s cringe
Ashley: Exactly. So that is truly… That is, like, the majority of, like, the age and the group of the people that I [00:21:00] work with. And the problem is there is this community, and I call them the pet newbies or the newbie creators, who all they do is follow each other. So they just go and follow tons of other small pet content creators, and then what they see is each other’s content.
Ashley: So what I always tell people is if you’re going to start one of these new channels, the first thing you do is just go and follow the people you are inspired to be or you aspire to be, and that way on your [00:21:30] own feed, Instagram will feed you, or TikTok, whatever, it will start feeding you the best content from those creators, and then you will start seeing what works really, really well for the people who know how to do it well.
Ashley: But unfortunately, again, what I see with this newbie creator community is they follow each other, and then all they see is the same type of content, and they literally, like, post the same stuff over and over and over again, and this type of content is like, “Oh, please follow me.” I’m like, a brand won’t [00:22:00] ever look at this and say, “Oh, I wanna be associated with this channel.” So this is, like, the number one thing I always tell creators. I’m like, “Go unfollow all those channels with 200 subscribers. You’re not learning from them. If you wanna follow that- with them on your personal channels, go ahead.
Ashley: But you’re starting a business, and you need to aspire to be the big content creators. You’re not here just to have fun.” It is fun. But again, like, this is a business, and this is not you just supporting other small creators. Like, you need to set a foundation of [00:22:30] knowing what you aspire to be.
Ashley: So that’s just, like, my first little tip because I see it all the time
Maggie: I mean, it’s like any business. If you wanna be a millionaire, you gotta play in the realm of people who are millionaires. You can’t be in the small business networking group where everyone’s earning, you know, 100,000 a year. Like, you’ve got to, you’ve gotta play up. I can definitely see that, like, on my feed or see… Yeah, I’ve seen those go around where it’s, I get all boats rise together, but it’s also like, mm-mm, we [00:23:00] gotta get some tips from the big
Ashley: Right. And I guess one thing that has helped me when it comes to giving that type of advice is I have personally talked to a handful of, like, marketing… they’re like the third-party marketing individuals who, like, work for brands. Anyway and so I’ve personally asked them because it actually is common, just FYI, of how this works.
Ashley: So when you do collaborate with a big brand such as like I have with Amazon PetSmart, and brands like that, they work with a third party. Like, [00:23:30] they don’t just use their in-house marketing. They work with a third-party marketing agency, and usually do, like, a Zoom with them to know that, you know, it’s a legitimate thing.
Ashley: I straight-up ask them now every single time. I say, “How did you find my channel? Why did you decide on my channel, and how do you vet other channels?” And I have heard over and over and over again, the biggest things that brands care about looking for is good storytelling, so that understandably is good engagement.
Ashley: You’re showcasing the relationship between, like, human and pet, and they do not like… And I’ve heard this thankfully s- and [00:24:00] I say thankfully so many times ’cause I educate people, like, “Don’t do this,” but they do not like those types of videos that tries to call out, “Please subscribe. Please subscribe.”
Ashley: Kind of throwaway content where you just make something and just to thr- just to post it. They just really want intentional storytelling, intentional content on your channel
Maggie: It looks a little desperate
Ashley: It does. It does. And I completely understand it. Like, there have been phases in my life where, whether it was when I had my daughter or when moving where I’m like, “I don’t have time to create [00:24:30] content.
Ashley: I can’t. It’s 9:00 PM, and I’m sitting in bed, and oh my gosh, I have to create a video today.” And I’ve been there. Like, I completely understand. But when it comes to, like, looking desperate to please subscribe and stuff, it is just a whole nother type of category of content that I just never advocate for
Maggie: And it’s kind of that learning curve of like they always say like, “Have a call to action,” you know? And so you’re like, “Great, that’s my call to action.” You know what I mean? Like, I get the learning curve ’cause there’s so much noise around how to be a content creator and different coaching programs for either different [00:25:00] niches or whatever it may be.
Maggie: And so how did you translate then from, “Great, my content’s going well, I should maybe teach others how to do this as well too,”
Ashley: Okay. So this was about two years into Chips’ channel, and at that point, I had experimented with enough of diverse monetization opportunities. I was making enough to actually go part-time in my job at the time. And I was like, yeah, it was a huge milestone. I almost had a ton of guilt.
Ashley: Like, I felt a lot of guilt going [00:25:30] down to part-time just because, like, I had to convince my husband that this could last a while, that, you know, it was worthwhile. Nevertheless so yes, there was a point where I was like, “Okay, I have enough income predictably every month coming in.” But I had gone through both coaching and courses trying to learn the nuances of how to grow bigger, how to make this a big, legitimate thing.
Ashley: But there were no resources for pet content creators. And I knew… Like, I tried a lot of [00:26:00] the different methods, strategies that I learned on YouTube. They were like, “How to blow up overnight,” and all those things. I watched countless videos. I tried, but there was a lot that just didn’t work for my niche.
Ashley: So I was like, “Okay, I have my experience from my blog where I learned a lot of graphic design and copywriting and sales and affiliate marketing. I learned all that. I even learned, like, how to literally build website and all that stuff.” I was like, “Why don’t I translate that into a business, into a space, a niche that [00:26:30] literally there is a hole that needs filled?”
Ashley: So, I started Petfluencer Secrets, and it by now has grown a lot, which is so exciting, but it still is a very, very small niche out there because it’s like a person who, again, my target audience being more of that, like, 30 to 50-year-old. But I have learned that, oh my gosh, there is that need. There is a need because, again, taking the advice of how to, you know, blow up overnight of, like MrBeast style videos, like it just [00:27:00] doesn’t translate to our niche.
Ashley: So yeah, so it was about, you know, two, two and a half years in, and it is a huge passion of mine because again, there are more resources now that I know a lot of content creators have been like, “Ooh, let’s make money off of this.” But still, it’s still such a small niche, but I love
Ashley: it. I love it so much.
Maggie: I mean, a small niche is great, right? Like, you don’t have as many competitors, which is awesome. But I appreciate you bringing, like, the truth on all these things, ’cause I think so many people, they’re like, “We have a lot of dog videos. Just post them, and people will reach [00:27:30] out.” And like, it is more than that, and I think we also gotta give people like you who are the influencers, like, props, you know?
Maggie: It’s not just like this hoity-toity thing. Like, no it’s work, but I’m making money for it, so don’t feel guilty
Maggie: about going part-time.
Maggie: I’ve gotta ask, do you have, like, insurance on your pet?
Ashley: So, I’ve actually been asked that a lot. I have influencer insurance, Yes, there’s a thing. In fact, I learned it was a thing when I got into a, my largest brand deal ever about a year and a half ago, [00:28:00] and on the contract it said I needed influencer insurance. I said, “What?” I didn’t know this existed, but this, there is influencer insurance where it, no, it does not cover like my vet bills and like my pet stuff, but it does make it so that if I post, let’s say, controversial content or I post content about a product that someone claims that they watched my video, they bought the product, and then it, you know, like killed their dog or something, that they could not sue me, right?
Ashley: Like, it’s insurance against that. [00:28:30] It’s crazy. So yeah. So I do have ins- influencer insurance. No, I don’t have… I did for a while have insurance on my pets because I did a collaboration with an insurance brand, and I was offered insurance for a while. But right now I don’t, which to be honest, I had quite one of m- my non, my less famous cat we had massive bills ’cause we had to have a surgery this past year, and at that time I thought, “Darn it.
Ashley: I should have them under insurance.”
Maggie: It always happens once you need something, which I know, like, some people just carry pet insurance. I know it’s a great [00:29:00] idea. My dog’s 14 and a half. We don’t qualify. But that’s interesting that there’s influencer insurance. I’ve never heard of that, but it makes sense. People are… When people have a bad mood, they’re out to get you these days.
Ashley: Oh. People are mean online. Oh my gosh. And I tell people, “So you are more likely to have hater comments if you, if a human is on your video compared to your pet.” But one of my cats, so my famous cat, Chip, the Manx breed for those of you who are unfamiliar, they are born with either a half tail or no tail, and that’s [00:29:30] just like a distincting, distinctive thing about their breed.
Ashley: And I… It is almost daily where people comment hate comments about the fact that I cut off my cat’s tail, which again, is not true. He was born that way. But people, and especially on YouTube, I don’t know, a lot of people on YouTube, for whatever reason they’re just posting hater comments all the time.
Ashley: And especially like people… I’ve had people talk about my voice, like they don’t like my voice. They don’t like what I wear. I mean, people are so mean online. But at least I at least tell my clients, I’m like, “You know what? In the [00:30:00] pet niche, what’s really nice is we have less hater comments,” but you are not exempt from hater comments even though it’s just your dog on there.
Ashley: People will hate
Ashley: on your dog.
Maggie: It’s rough out there, but you gotta remember, like, engagement’s engagement, right?
Ashley: I know, I know. That’s why I say I tell people, I’m like, “If it truly, truly makes you feel uncomfortable, just block them and move on. But if they’re saying something just a little bit mean, comment back.” And always, I always say, “Always comment with a question, [00:30:30] because that way they’ll feel prompted to engage back, and then all of a sudden you have twice as many comments.”
Ashley: So yeah, it is it’s engagement, just may not feel too good. And so what I’ve done, thankfully, at this point with my business, I’ve been able to hire a virtual assistant to manage a lot of my cat side of things, my cat businesses, whatever we wanna call it. And so whenever there’s hater comments, I just let her do it and I don’t have to take on that emotional, mental toll of seeing negative comments anymore
Maggie: It’s so much better to outsource. Like, anything that I don’t like to [00:31:00] do, it’s like there’s some weird emotional attachment, you know? But I like, if I was commenting back for you, I’d be like, “Okay, I could do that for Ashley,” and go stick up for her, you know? Like, but like, if they were commenting on my voice, I’d be like, “Oh, well,
Maggie: okay then.”
Ashley: Exactly. Yeah, for sure
Maggie: This has been so much information. Is there anything that we haven’t touched on that, like, you feel the audience needs to know about pet influencer secrets or just being an influencer at all?
Ashley: Yeah. So I do wanna [00:31:30] touch on just the reality of the income. So I know a lot of your audience is obviously, like, learning about money and trying to just try to make it through this world. And especially because we’re women, like, the way that we have to approach everything is just different.
Ashley: I just wanted to touch on the absolute reality of how much money you can make, and I definitely, again, don’t wanna sugarcoat it because, yeah. So when it comes to being a content creator in general, and I’ve seen this cross [00:32:00] platforms because I thankfully have actually had the opportunity to coach people outside of the pet niche, so I’ve seen it a little bit in other niches. You have to mentally prepare yourself for at least a minimum of six months to, up to, like, 24 months of consistent effort before you can, be able to go part-time on a job. Six months is very, very unlikely. In fact, it still takes anywhere from, about a year to a year and a half to even get into that YouTube Partner Program.
Ashley: There’s one gal who thankfully she was [00:32:30] like, she has like the record in my group coaching where she got it in four months. But still that’s not going to pay your mortgage. I always say, if you wanna be a content creator, don’t bet on it being a full-time job. Almost like don’t ever bet on it being a full-time job just because again, the moment, like I’ve experienced it being a full-time job, it can get extremely isolating.
Ashley: So, because you’re by yourself, no one can do it for you.
Ashley: so it’s isolating. It is mentally challenging ’cause again, even like negative [00:33:00] comments and whatnot. And you have to just, before you get into it, brace yourself in knowing that this can be like an emotionally taxing thing mentally taxing, and to be honest, really time-consuming to where it’s taking away from your precious weekends.
Ashley: Okay, I have a routine. On Saturday mornings, I wake up at 4:00 in the morning, and I try to go through emails. I go to my local Starbucks, and I spend three hours every single Saturday before my kids wake up, before my husband wakes up, just trying to get extra work [00:33:30] done so that I can spend time with my family.
Ashley: So there is so much sacrifice that comes with, if and when you get to that point to where it is a legitimate full-time job, and I know that I run like multiple channels and my coaching business, like I know I’m a little… I have a little bit more on my plate than what would be the average just pet content creator.
Ashley: But there’s a lot of sacrifice to it, and I think just a lot of people think that you can just start posting, start making money, and although there’s a very, very small, small reality [00:34:00] to that, the biggest reality is that you likely are unable to sustain. So a big problem that I tend to see are when people casually post, and then all of a sudden they go viral, or all of a sudden they have content where their followers are skyrocketing, and they’re unable to sustain that.
Ashley: That’s usually when people reach out to me. They’re like, “Oh my gosh, I had a few videos go viral. This is so exciting. How do I make money off of this?” But people’s lifestyles, you have to know that you have to [00:34:30] alter your lifestyle to be able to sustain this level of virality, this level of engagement, and the the maintenance of your channel.
Ashley: And that’s where I see, I don’t know if you’ve heard, but the biggest statistic with longevity of content creators is that a solid half of content creators won’t even make it past the first year of being a content creator. But then a huge chunk of even 50%, they won’t even make it past the first 90 days because it’s habit building, right?
Ashley: It’s habit building, and that’s [00:35:00] where the, you know, first 90 days comes from. And then after a year, just people realize that it is just unsustainable or not worth the time investment into it.
Maggie: I appreciate the transparency. There’s so much online where you just do these two things, and in, in 90 days you’re earning six figures or, you know, all these things, which man, they are great clickbait. But we have to be honest about it, and I think sometimes so many women are like, I mean, and men too, are just feel that shame of like, “I’m doing something wrong.
Maggie: I’m not good enough. It’s all on me.” Where it’s like, no, no, no. This is [00:35:30] fake advertising, and it’s not as, like, fluffy and effortless as it looks. Like, the video’s supposed to make you feel like that, yes. But it didn’t show Ashley at 4:00 in the morning at the Starbucks.
Ashley: Exactly. Yes, the Starbucks knows me very well. But I will say, even just to give, like, true transparency, okay, so out of the multiple hundreds of people who I’ve had, like, true one-on-one work with, so this guy, he has had the best and highest success, and it took him eight months, and he was able to make $80,000 through his dog. But he’s, like, the [00:36:00] one person who actually, like, had that, like, true viral wild success that people talk about in the ads and in those YouTube videos.
Ashley: Everyone else, everyone else has been slow and steady wins the race. Everyone. And even my story. Yes, I’ve had countless videos that get millions or tens of millions of views, but even that doesn’t show, you know, seven and a half years of all the stuff that I’ve gone through to get to where I’m at.
Ashley: A lot of people, when I say, “Oh, yeah, I’m a full-time cat influencer and [00:36:30] content coach,” they’re just How can I do that?” I’m like, “No, you can’t.” Like, do you want to invest seven years of your life and all your weekends and every evening of your life into this for seven years? I don’t think you do.
Maggie: It doesn’t sound much different from you going to grad school, committing that time to get your undergrad and your graduate degree to go get a job. Like, it’s very in sync, you know? There’s no magic quick win, do this, you’ll earn $100,000
Ashley: just hope that story of just one person actually was able to, like, [00:37:00] make good money in a shorter period of time. Everyone else, it’s slow and steady. And because most of it you have to learn in trial and error and experiment over such a long period of time and things are ever-changing.
Ashley: It’s frustrating, it’s overwhelming. You’re doing it in your evenings. Like, it just takes time. But I don’t wanna discourage anyone as well, because it is a super fun side hustle. Like, it is a very real reality for every- I say, like, everyday people, because I haven’t… There’s only been one person. So aside from this one other guy [00:37:30] ’cause I primarily, I’d say it’s like 95% of the people I work with are women.
Ashley: But aside from another guy, everyone, like, their jobs are super traditional jobs. I mean, like, teachers, and there’s like, all these, like, clerical workers. Like, people who just want to earn some extra money. And so it is an absolute reality. It just takes extreme intentionality
Maggie: Yeah, I love that. And so are you still a physical therapist as well?
Ashley: So just because I spent $100,000 on it, I could not emotionally [00:38:00] truly give it up. so I do work two mornings a week, and I do it purely out of passion and not out of, like, a need for income. And I did it at a c- clinic that’s four minutes from my house. So yeah. So I do it as my way to get out of the house, socialize and I love it.
Ashley: So yes I do still do physical therapy. But again, it is by no means, like, because I need to, I guess.
Maggie: Yeah. No, I mean, it all comes together and, I mean, the other thing I like to remind people is, like, that $80,000, you’re still paying taxes on [00:38:30] too. So it’s not just $80,000 in your pocket. That’s 1099 work.
Ashley: That, oh my gosh.
Maggie: goodbye to a third of it.
Ashley: See, and yes, yes, yes, yes. In fact, oh, we talk about this a lot with my group coaching clients where they’re like, “Oh my gosh, I just, you know, landed $100 deal.” I’m like, “Let’s translate that. That’s actually not $100.” Or even those big ones, like $5,000 deals, $10,000 deals. Like, yeah, you have…
Ashley: Like, the self-employment taxes here in the States, like, it surprises many, many people. I heard [00:39:00] a story from a friend who, this guy became a big YouTuber. So this was a local guy where I live. He became a big YouTuber last year, and made enough… He made about half a million dollars off of the YouTube Partner Program, which again, super cool, but spent all of his money.
Ashley: And then was just recently got his tax bill, and it has been quite a problem. But yeah you almost think, like, when you receive this money, like, into your PayPal account, you’re like, “Oh my gosh, this is so exciting. Like, I’m $100 richer.” But then you’re like, [00:39:30] “I have to pay taxes.” And that is a scary amount of money to have to just fork back away when you’re not used to doing that
Maggie: Yeah, when it’s 1099 work and you go independent, that’s your own insurance coming out of there, that’s your own, you’re matching your own 401, like, all the things. And you’re like, “Wow, maybe I’m not charging enough,” because there’s no money left.
Ashley: Exactly.
Maggie: no, this has been great, and I appreciate, again, like, that honesty.
Maggie: Just so when people go out there and try it, ’cause I’m not saying don’t do it. I love your pet [00:40:00] videos. Please produce them, because I wanna watch them. But it’s hard work, and so we gotta be honest about that, which is one of the reasons why I wanted to have this conversation, is there’s so much influencers, so much ways to make money out there.
Maggie: People wanna know the quick ways. And so this is another opportunity. There’s always different ways to do it, it’s just what you’re willing to do, the time you’re willing to commit, what you enjoy to do. So Ashley, after all of these adventures, what does financial freedom look like for you?
Ashley: Yep. [00:40:30] So the biggest thing to me… Because actually, if you remember, so I was writing a finance blog, and I talked about financial freedom all the time. And to me, financial freedom is equivalent to time freedom. So because I’ve spent so much time in school and sacrificing my time, time freedom is the biggest thing for me.
Ashley: And I have gotten to the point where I know I’ve kind of made it sound like I have no time at all but I have structured my schedule to where I do have a lot of time. I have a daughter. I love family time. I love friend time. And so [00:41:00] time to me is the biggest thing. I will say, have I achieved true, like, financial time freedom?
Ashley: No, because I am super, you know, heads in deep with my businesses and everything. But I have at least achieved a point in my life now, thankfully, that I love everything that I do. And I know a lot of people can’t say that. Like, you know, they’re stuck at a job where they’re just, you know, making it by every day, and it’s hard emotionally.
Ashley: But I love, genuinely love everything I do. So for me, financial freedom, I envision [00:41:30] one day will be passive income coming in that I’m able to… Like, I’m really big, I know we haven’t talked about this, and I don’t want to go into it necessarily, but I have, like, rental investing and into, like, different investments.
Ashley: And so getting to the point to where I do have a diverse portfolio to be able to pay for my op- ability to just do a little bit of everything that I love. ‘Cause right now I’m doing a lot a bit of everything that I love.
Maggie: And I think the biggest thing I wanna highlight from this whole episode is so many women say, “I don’t know much about money. I don’t know. [00:42:00] I should know this.” You started off not knowing anything and doing a little bit of research and a little bit of blogs. Now you’re a graduate running this business, running these accounts, having investment properties.
Maggie: Like,
Maggie: look
Maggie: at that growth. That’s
Ashley: truly, like the past seven years of my life I’ve thought multiple times, if I, when I look back at who I was, what I knew, it is insane. And all it took was just personal drive.
Maggie: And just getting started,
Ashley: Yes, and I started at the absolute [00:42:30] bare minimum of like the super basics of learning what even is money, and it’s taken a long time.
Ashley: And I think a lot of people want to just, boom, know everything right now or know everything in the next three months. But it has taken years, and I’m still not perfect.
Maggie: Well, congratulations on all your success. Thank you for coming and sharing your expertise. We’re gonna have the Pet Influencer Secrets linked below as well as your social posts so we can check out more of your cats. And so until next time, be financially fearless.
The Smart Way to Plan Adoption or Surrogacy with Kelly Ellison
Building a family shouldn’t feel like a financial guessing game.
This week, we’re sitting down with Kelly Ellison, MBA, Founder and COO of GGR Group LLC and VESTA for Families, who’s spent over 25 years helping families navigate adoption, surrogacy, and nontraditional paths to parenthood.
After adopting her daughter from China, Kelly saw firsthand just how overwhelming and expensive the process can be and made it her mission to help families do it smarter, with clarity and support.
In this conversation, we’re breaking down what most people don’t talk about.
We cover the real costs behind adoption and surrogacy, why so many families waste money before choosing the right path, and how to actually plan financially so you don’t have to start over.
02:00 Why “more options” can actually lead to more confusion
07:47 The biggest financial mistakes families make early on
16:00 Why financial clarity matters just as much as emotional readiness
24:00 How employer benefits can completely change your path
27:00 What to do before you spend a single dollar
Kelly reminds us that there’s no one-size-fits-all plan when it comes to building a family. But there is a smarter way to approach it. Join us for next week’s Money Talks “Considering Adoption? Financial Planning for Growing Your Family”. Click here to registerfor FREE and bring your questions!
Have questions? Click this to check out our expert Q&A for tips from industry experts, tailored to help women address their most common financial concerns.
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Barbara Provost, EdD and Maggie Nielsen, MBA are the co-founders of Purse Strings, a national platform helping women make confident financial decisions by connecting them with vetted financial professionals who truly understand women’s lives and money needs. Purse Strings connects women across the U.S. with vetted financial professionals who specialize in supporting women through divorce, money transitions, and financial independence.
Full Episode Transcript
(This transcript was generated using AI, so please excuse any misspellings or errors)
PS: Kelly Ellison (MP3)
[00:00:00]
Maggie: All right. So I was thinking about this during a show. My fourth grade teacher was a single woman, and I’ll never forget in like I had her in fourth grade, in probably like seventh or eighth grade, she adopted a little girl from China, and I thought at the time. I still think like how impactful it was to see this woman who’s a teacher, you don’t really get paid a ton of money as a teacher, saved at this money and as a single woman adopted a child, I thought that was like, the boldest thing to do. And she talked about how she had her parents in her life and they were super helpful. And I was always just so impressed that she like, knew she wanted a family, which I’m always like, God, didn’t you get enough student during the day? Like,
Dr. Barb: Yeah.
Maggie: aren’t you kidded out? But no, and she wanted a family.
Did it matter? Husband and adopted this child who grew up and I actually ended up babysitting later in life, which was weird. But then I think she adopted one more as well. And I was just always like, it [00:01:00] always seemed really impactful to me. And I don’t know if she knows this, but like that she just, as a single woman was like, this is what I wanna do, and made it happen, I didn’t see a lot of that representation. I don’t know. It was always just super impactful for me,
Dr. Barb: first of all, that whole process is somewhat overwhelming and expensive, I think A and B being a single mom, working full-time and having an adopted child, or your new baby. And then doing it again is huge. And it does show, her values, her desires, her goals in her life.
But you’ve had friends, I mean, your dad was adopted, you’ve had friends who were adopted.
Maggie: We worked with somebody who was adopting, and man, when they said they had to like go through their house and she’s like, they turned every drawer upside down. Like they hit every nook and cranny in that house to make sure nothing was hidden, nothing was this, nothing was that. I was like, wow, that’s.
invasive, but good. You know what I mean? Like it’s, I’m not mad about it. I want people to have a safe home, but it [00:02:00] was it’s funny ’cause you could just have a baby and they’ll let you take it home as long as the car seat buckle in, like,
Dr. Barb: I know. It’s wild. But yeah, I mean the whole process of creating your family, what you want your family to be, what you want it to look like, what’s the relationship that you are in? Are you both thinking around the same thought process? The financials behind it and the emotional components and rollercoaster along the way is huge.
Everyone,
Maggie: I don’t know. I think it’s amazing. You know, these kids, they’d need a home. And it’s amazing when people can provide that. And so I was so glad to have Kelly on for her to share her expertise on adoption and surrogacy and what that process was like. And she went through it herself.
She has an adopted child, but then how you can have your companies help with benefits as well for this is we have the health benefits, but you know, what can you do when you’re making a family in a different way? So. This podcast feels very 2020. You know what I mean? Like, I [00:03:00] don’t feel like this was, well, like very, like this was not talked about, 20 years ago.
Very modern era. Very social media, just all these different things now that were just never available or more taboo before.
Dr. Barb: People are starting to talk about it. Life is changing. The world is changing. People are making different choices. But you know, on our pod, we wanna make sure we’re talking about all of these things because there’s a financial impact to it. Right?
Huge financial impact. Yep. There always is. So I say, let’s turn it over to Kelly.
Maggie: Let’s get started.
Gloria Steinem once said, we will never solve the feminization of power until we solve the masculinity of wealth. Barbara Provost and Maggie Nielsen are the team at purse strings that will help you navigate the ins and outs of financial independence so that you can be financially fearless. This [00:04:00] is women in money, the shit we don’t talk about.
Maggie: Kelly, welcome to Women and Money, the shit we don’t talk about. I’m so excited to dive into this conversation of all things kind of building a family, not just adoption, but we got surrogacy, we got all the different things. So before we dive in, can you share a little bit about who you are and the work that you do?
Kelly: Sure. Thanks so much for having me today. I appreciate having the opportunity to talk about my favorite topics, which are adoption, surrogacy, and finances. So I came into this space from the nonprofit sector. Actually I was working in the nonprofit sector for a long time. So my lens on life, if you would be fundraising, grant writing, philanthropy, those kinds of things.
My husband and I went to China to bring our daughter home. We adopted her in China in 2007. Really dating myself now. And she was nine months old. And that if anyone who’s ever been [00:05:00] through the adoption experience knows it’s just a life-changing experience. And what struck me most was just how much this cost and what a huge financial barrier there is for not only adoptive families, but families who are choosing surrogacy, families, who are choosing other non-traditional paths.
So, with that I had a master’s degree in business and decided to go ahead and, and kind of step out on my own and start to work with prospective adoptive families. And also over the years, we evolved into helping families doing surrogacy, egg donor foster care. So really those non-traditional paths of parenthood and now more than ever.
More than ever don’t we have so many choices, so many choices. So it’s confusing, isn’t it? So one of the things that Vesta does is to provide guidance to employees [00:06:00] and employers by managing their benefits and helping them to really understand how do they envision their future family? What are the things that are most important to them?
Are they interested in a multicultural family? Do they want an infant? Are they open to an older child? We have found that the price points between surrogacy and adoption have really kind of come closer together. So it’s not uncommon for a domestic adoption to be upwards of $70,000 or $75,000. So it can be very expensive.
And, and so one of the things that we realize is that there are so many choices, and there are a lot of false starts. So a lot of folks can jump into fertility treatments, for example, and end up unsuccessful and on the adoption path or surrogacy path. So there are a lot of different ways that we can waste a lot of money because we don’t know what path [00:07:00] is best for us.
So what Vesta does is really to help set that up. We really help employees to set that up and understand what are the paths for us, what works for our family, what’s realistic financially, and how do we make a plan that we can succeed in and bring our family together.
Maggie: Wow. I love that. And there’s a lot of moving parts. like you said we’re seeing a lot more conversation about this non-traditional family building. So what kind of changes are you noticing? Are you seeing an increase in what. One way or the other, or, yeah. What are you kind of seeing in your, in your practice?
Kelly: Really not necessarily an increase, I think curiosity more than anything. You know, people are just curious. We’re starting to understand, we’re starting to level the playing field. I think this is no longer about, I have infertility and I’m gonna go do a surrogacy, or I’m gonna go do an adoption path because I can’t have children.
Biologically, that’s not really the question anymore. [00:08:00] Women are choosing to parent much later. Women are choosing to be single parents. Women are are making a lot of different choices. We have different family definitions, so. It’s really across the board. And the more popular, of course, the more, the more media and press and information that’s out there, the more popular that these paths actually get.
You’d be surprised how important surrogacy can be for a same-sex family, for a single family, for anyone. But I think starting from just infertility and going from there is really not the right question.
The question is, what does my family look like and what are the choices that are available to me?
Maggie: it’s just so interesting because I follow some different people on social media who share their surrogacy journey of being the surrogate. And so what it’s like for them to carry the baby and those relationships and it’s interesting to me just because it was something [00:09:00] that I don’t think people have been exposed to as much anymore, like Now it’s the whole mo, right? They’re being sponsored and they’re doing all these different things and they’re having these babies for these families, which is wonderful. But some of that, like you said, is this press and this social media that really gets it out there that you could see sometimes people use this as an income source, if their body is capable of doing that, you know?
And it supports the family a bit. And so it’s so interesting just because without social media, this was just never talked about as much and you couldn’t follow their journey and all these different things. So it is really interesting.
Kelly: and let me just say about that, certainly social media is a normal part of our lives. But I, I want to tread carefully within the social media circles around these particular issues because there can be, as there can be good information and, and bad information. and because these journeys are so emotional they’re so charged.
It’s really easy for someone who’s having a bad experience to vent on social [00:10:00] media or, or send the wrong information. And it’s across the board. It’s in adoption, it’s in foster care. It’s surrogacy, it’s across the board in terms of misinformation. So we have to be very, very careful about our sources.
And you have to really have due diligence around what is the information that you’re getting. And how are you making an informed decision about your family?
Dr. Barb: Yeah, and that’s true, you know. About everything on social media, right? We always see what’s the shiny, best outcome of any situation that they’re trying to promote. But yes, and when you’re dealing with children, babies, other humans you need to be very, very careful about those conversations and about those activities and things like that. But I’d love to dive into some of the costs. Not having ever gone through any of this, I’m curious what the costs are that you see for [00:11:00] adoption compared to fertility treatments and even compared to surrogacy. Something like that. Like what kind of monies are we thinking about? Because you need to kind of pony up your own dollars for this.
Kelly: Oh yes, you do. And you need to be prepared to do that. And there are a lot of folks who are not prepared around that. One of the areas that I think gets missed a lot is a, a element of adoption called relationship or kinship adoption, where you might have a family that has had a tragedy in some way and they are they’re asked to adopt.
Nieces, nephews, grandchildren, and in those kinds of situations, the finances are not in place. This is not something they’re looking for. We work with several, unfortunately, several families who are from other countries, families from Ghana who have lost their brothers and sisters in Ghana and have to go and adopt.
I’m currently working with a case right now of a [00:12:00] family that has to adopt two little boys from Ghana. Two nephews and they’ve been in this process for over two years, and this is a $50,000 plus experience. So it’s a hardship on that particular family, but you know, they have to get these boys home.
But let me back up and, and answer your question, Dr. Barb. So part of the challenge is, is that you may or may not know that California, the SB 279, I believe is the correct. Number for that bill. It is, it just came out in July of last year and actually redefined what fertility is, what infertility is.
There are a number of what is considered to be mandated states where fertility and infertility treatments have to be a part of the insurance plan for employers. So that creates a hardship of course, on employers to create that. I can’t give you the specifics, but a company that’s in California that has [00:13:00] 500 employees perhaps don’t have the capacity to offer that, but it’s mandated they have to do that.
so there’s that, there’s the fertility piece of that. And as I said before, a lot of people just like normally naturally go to that. And so if you’re in a mandated state, there is some financial, there are some financial resources that are there, but there’s still an out-of-pocket depending upon your healthcare provider is.
right, there is a financial responsibility. There’s also a further responsibility if those treatments are not successful. And so if those treatments are not successful, now you have perhaps spent your out-of-pocket, you spent your. Savings, you’ve spent your money and now don’t, you’re not successful, you don’t have your family together, and now you have to start over.
So we see this a lot and not to say that fertility treatments are not important, but depending upon the provider, anywhere from fifteen to twenty thousand dollars per [00:14:00] round for IVF treatments. So that can be very expensive. And of course, I can’t speak to the kind of healthcare network or what is, what’s the copay or anything around that.
If you’re lucky enough to be in a mandated state, then there is support for that. So you have that, you have that experience. Then you have domestic infant adoption, which as I said, can go all the way up to seventy thousand dollars. And it depends upon a lot of things. Are you being very specific about the child?
Do you want the child, to be healthy? No drug abuse, no alcohol abuse do you, What are your requirements in terms of birth mom? And what are you open to? So, that is a, that’s an issue. And how fast do you want to find a birth mom? So adoption is very different in that it is much more regulated than surrogacy.
So there are regulations around birth moms and regulations around how much can be paid to a birth [00:15:00] mom for birth mom expenses, reimbursing her for expenses. On the other side of adoption, there is an adoption tax credit. So the tax credit, which just became a refund and a tax credit, so anyone that’s pursuing a domestic a-adoption, foster care, or inter-country adoption is eligible for a five thousand dollar refund, plus a twelve thousand dollar tax credit.
That’s upon finalization of that adoption. Step parent adoption is excluded from that, but there is no tax credit in surrogacy, no tax credits in surrogacy. Surrogacy is a largely unregulated field. There are best practices, there are ethics there are organizations that are setting best practices for surrogacy, but, and the United States is actually one of the better countries more regulated, I’m using that word loosely, more regulated in terms of, of.
[00:16:00] Criteria, best practices for various different agencies, but it’s still the wild, wild west. It’s still agencies can set their fees basically. They they’re all doing pretty much what they want to do, so, and that’s not a bad thing. One of the big differences I think between the adoption community and the surrogacy community, the adoption community is largely a non-profit community.
Most of the adoption agencies, while there are some that are for profit are non-profit agencies, and I defy you to find an adoption agency that’s making tons of money. This is
Dr. Barb: Yeah.
Kelly: this is not an industry that you’re gonna make a lot of money in. On the other hand, surrogacy is a for-profit, largely a for-profit ent- entity.
So those companies that are doing surrogacy and egg, egg donor, the clinics, those kinds of things, those are for-profit entities. So understand that there’s a difference in the philosophy, if you will, in the structure, in the fundamental [00:17:00] understanding of the practices of the business.
It doesn’t make it good, bad, or indifferent, it just is. So surrogacy can range anywhere from, depending upon the part of the country that you’re in, can range anywhere from 70, $80,000 all the way up to $150,000. And the biggest piece of that cost is going to be agency fees, gestational carrier compensation.
If an egg donor is required, then an egg donor compensation, and then insurance for the surrogate. So the intended parents are are carrying the weight of the financial requirements and financial responsibility. And the gestational carrier compensation can vary. So you could have an experienced gestational carrier in California that is getting $80,000, $90,000.
Dr. Barb in [00:18:00] Chicago, I’ve seen GCs get as much as $80,000. So there are lots of choices that can be made. That’s why I think Vesta is doing. One of the reasons that we’re in the space that we’re in is because there are so many choices, right? And so when someone steps into a journey like this, being able to make some decisions along the way, do you want an experienced surrogate?
Do you want a, a surrogate who’s never done a journey before? Do you want to travel? Are you open to travel? If you live in California, maybe you’re open to traveling to a state. Where surrogates where the compensation is not so high. So there are lots of levers to be pulled here, both on the adoption and on the surrogacy side.
that can really have an impact at the end of the day, and I don’t wanna forget that there are many, many employers that are doing great things and offering benefits for their employees. [00:19:00] And I will tell you that if you’re not, if you’re an employer and you’re not, or you work with a company and your company does not offer benefits, the best family building benefits, the best way to do this is through a grassroots effort. I can go back and show you employers who, through grassroots efforts, employees who have gone and advocated for these benefits, where they have created the benefit for that employees and those to pay it forward.
Dr. Barb: Wow. It is a lot.
Kelly: It’s a lot to unpack for sure.
Dr. Barb: so your organization helps couples navigate all of these decision making
Kelly: Yes and what Vesta for Families really does, where the differentiation comes with Vesta for families in the whole family building benefits Space is we align the path with the financial wellness piece. So there is a journey that has to be navigated, right? But unless you’re paying attention [00:20:00] to the financial wellness of the family as they’re going through the process, it doesn’t matter how much money you’re throwing at this, if you don’t have the guidance and the financial wellness.
Integrated you know, a family could potentially lose a lot of money. One example that I’d like to give one large major company, $75,000 for an adoption. That’s a lot of money for an adoption, right? You could do a full adoption with that, or you could do multiple adoptions. This particular family had no guidance.
They had a generous employer benefit. However, they picked an agency, and the agency unfortunately went out of business.
And so by that time, half of that money had been spent and there was no recourse for that. They had to start over. So without the guidance, without the assistance of someone coming alongside and coaching and being an advocate and helping them to ask the right questions it can be very, very difficult for the family.
Maggie: So there [00:21:00] are questions that you feel like people should ask right from the get go, either to the company or to like, kind of deciding which route that they wanna take. Like what are those, those top questions or considerations you always recommend thinking on or asking about?
Kelly:The first thing is really about how do you envision your future family? What, what is right for you? And there’s no there, there’s no right or wrong. We don’t get to be the police. This is just about a question that’s right for you. Do you want your child to look like you? Do you want, are you open to a multicultural family?
Are you open to an older child? You know, what, what is it, I always love having this initial conversation with families because it’s really, really important for them to go there. Just go there. Allow yourself to go there and and envision what that looks like. and you really have to back out of that vision.
To begin to ask some questions to understand. So if I’m talking to a, a family who wants an infant, and you know, [00:22:00] that’s just the bottom line. We want an infant,” they’re gonna end up doing a domestic adoption path, or they’re going to end up doing a surrogacy path. A lot of the questions around surrogacy are can the woman carry are there some medical issues that prohibit her from carrying.
You know, there’s a lot of, there are a lot of factors that are included in that, but the difference between adoption and surrogacy can be very expensive. So that sometimes the cost is just a decision,
Dr. Barb: Is surrogacy do they have to find their own surrogate or do you do that your company?
Kelly: So Vesta for Families is not a placing agency. We’re not a surrogacy agency. We’re not an adoption agency. We are a benefits company. So we manage the benefits for the employer and work with the employees to guide them through their process. So we help an employer to create a policy according to best practices.
We work with the employers to help them understand, should I give a reimbursement or can I just provide an [00:23:00] education and advocacy program like Vesta? So we work with the employer when they want to bring a benefit like this into their company, and then as we work with the employee we’re helping to guide them to providers through our curated network.
We’re helping to guide them through the financial, of course, the financial aspects of it, budgeting, understanding what’s involved, the timeline, all of those things. And so we come alongside the family as they’re making all these decisions. We’re an independent advocate for the family, for the parents, not for the agency.
You know, none of that. But to answer your question around surrogacy, so. There are independent journeys. There are opportunities where a family member or a friend or family might be willing to be a, a gestational carrier, which is fine. There are people who do independent journeys. It certainly is something that is done.
I’m not sure that I would say it’s a [00:24:00] best practice because there are so many different factors. There are legal factors, there is an escrow service, there are is insurance. As I said, there’s medical understanding the surrogate going through psychological training or counseling being ready for this.
There are so many things that happen. So many steps that happen. I would think that someone who would want to do an independent journey, the way that I would describe it to you is you are remodeling your house and you decide that you wanna be the general contractor. Well, people do that, right?
Okay, go find your electrician. Go find that tile guy. You know, go find that person. Or you hire a general contractor to come in who has the resources, who knows the path, who knows what’s going on. And it really is a choice, but I will say a best practice is utilizing an agency.
Maggie: What are the timelines these days for a domestic adoption?
Kelly: Depending [00:25:00] upon all the criteria, as I said you know, typically a timeline for domestic adoption is gonna be anywhere from 12 to 18 months. And it, could be faster if they wanna get to the head of the line you pay for that, obviously. There’s a lot of different ways that you can do a domestic infant adoption.
You can network only in your own state. You can network nationally if your agency is licensed in other states. So, you can use a consultant and you can sign up with multiple agencies and therefore, you know your name is on a, on multiple lists if you want. most domestic or or folks who are pursuing infant domestic adoption create a profile.
And that profile then is marketed the difference between certainly the difference between adoption and surrogacy, very, very clear differences. So you have a birth mom who has a genetic connection to that infant, to that child. She has the right to terminate and or not terminate her, rights throughout the duration of that, of that adoption, there’s a certain point at which she [00:26:00] would terminate her rights after the child is born.
If she changes her mind, that’s absolutely her right to do so. The gestational carrier in surrogacy is not connected in any way to the child. She’s contractually legally bound to carry that child and follow the aspects of the contract.
Maggie: And then what is like the paternity maternity leave for people who either do surrogacy or adoption? Do they get that same? Six weeks or whatever we’re given these
days.
Kelly: No, no, no. It depends upon the company. It is not recommended to divide or separate in your policy. Specific maternity leave. Lots of companies are going to maternity and paternity leave, which is obvious that that’s important, that they need to do that.
But most benefits most leave include adoption. Very few times when I have seen it excluded. From a company leave. [00:27:00] One of the things that I think is important is the Dave Thomas Foundation. Dave Thomas was a, was a Wendy’s, if you, if you recognize the name. He was a champion in terms of foster care and adoption.
The Dave Thomas Foundation has what is called the adoption Friendly Network workplaces, and they acknowledge the top 100 and 500 companies that are offering benefits around adoption. So that means. Parental leave, that means reimbursement and they get acknowledged for that. It’s a wonderful list to be on if you’re an employer, but it’s also a good way to go and consult and find out what companies are actually offering these kinds of benefits.
70% of women will leave the workplace for a company that has these benefits. That’s
huge. It’s huge.
So employers really need to understand that while there’s not a high utilization to this, it goes to brand, [00:28:00] it goes to loyalty, it goes to productivity, it goes to all of that. And we see a lot of employers that are doing a lot of really generous, generous benefits that include support and advocacy and also leave and reimbursement.
Maggie: I love how there’s a group that kind of has them highlighted and, and kind of going back to how you mentioned that if you’re company doesn’t offer anything. How do you offer the, grassroots efforts there? Which makes so much sense because I can see some business owners being like, well, how much is it gonna be utilized?
You know, we’ll get there when, when it’s needed. And that’s not always the best way to go about things. You know, running a business, there’s a lot of plates to spin, and so I can see why those grassroots efforts make a lot of. Impact because it’s like, oh, now that this is coming up, sure. We’re, we’re happy to talk about it and offer it, but until someone needs it we’re gonna do the 18 other things
Kelly: Eighteen other things that we think are important, and certainly employers are, are being forced to look at high costs of healthcare. I mean, there’s a lot of things that are on their plate. [00:29:00] But I’m gonna flip the script a little bit and say to you that this is one of the easiest things that an employer can do without really too much lift.
This is kind of in the category of a no-brainer.
An employer can do this very, very simply. They can do it budget neutral if they want to. There’s a way that an employer can do an adoption assistance program. That is really budget neutral. You know, bring in a, c- an organization like us, Vesta, we can advocate and provide education and advocacy.
And that’s a really good start. That’s a really good way to start it without spending too much money, and it’s not a big lift. One time I had someone talk to in a conference that I was in talk about utilization for these particular benefits. And of c- course it’s easy to. Have that kind of knee-jerk effect.
Well, only one person, or we hear this a lot, “No one in my company needs
Maggie: That’s a broad brush assumption.
Kelly: Yeah, that’s a really, really broad [00:30:00] conversation. But what if one does
What if one does only one? what have you done? You’ve really, really helped a family right? And that’s gonna go so far. It’s gonna go such a long way.
That even if one or two or three even experience this it’s just the right thing to do. It’s something that you want to do.
Maggie: And you’re so right about that company. Loyalty after that it’s like they were so supportive. I wanna stick with them. I mean, all the things. it’s a huge reflection of the company, I believe.
Kelly: it is.
Maggie: And so for someone who’s thinking about adoption or surrogacy, what’s one smart financial step you would recommend them to take as soon as possible?
Kelly: Well, so, first of all, if their company does not offer a benefit, I think that’s always a good first start because one of the things you don’t wanna do is you don’t wanna get into it and then realize, oh, this is really expensive. Wow. I bet my company would do this. So even if it’s something that’s on your radar down the road it’s a good thing to do that if [00:31:00] folks want to a little plug for ourselves.
If folks want to reach out for Vesta… to vestaforfamilies.com, there’s a form on our website that you can fill out that we will actually reach out to your company on your behalf or just reach out to them and help to advocate for that benefit. So that’s probably the first thing. The second thing is, is that to your point, Dr.
Barb you do have to have some skin in the game. So for adoption, for example, you do need to be able to at least have your home study done before you’re eligible for grants, before you’re eligible for loans, before you’re eligible for any of this. That’s a good start place to start. Home studies are anywhere from 2000 to $5,000.
So, you do need to have a little bit of funding here. You need to have your house in order, like, you need to have an emergency fund that’s set up, right? Don’t we know the meaning of an emergency fund after COVID, right after the pandemic. So you need to have an emergency fund.
You need to kinda have your house in order around that. You need to check with your [00:32:00] employer, as I said. So kind of doing those preliminary steps that kinda let you know, okay, this is something that we could commit ourselves to. We’re gonna start, putting some money, set aside some money for our family building plan, if you will.
We’re gonna advocate at our companies to see if they can create a benefit. Or perhaps you wanna find a company. Perhaps you wanna look for a company that has a benefit that you know you might want to go to. That makes all the difference in the world is to be able to have a company that’s not only helping you financially, but it’s also helping you psychologically it’s a big lift to do these journeys.
Maggie: And I can see how a lot, a lot of that might have a long tail. So you do wanna get started early. I mean, if it’s finding a new job that’s a resume. That’s applications. It’s getting onboard. I mean, like, or talking to your company. I mean, again, they have a thousand things they’re doing. So yes, you might be on the priority list, but it’s not we’ll get it done tomorrow.
So getting started with these conversations early makes a [00:33:00] lot of sense, I mean, getting a job is not a quick thing typically.
Kelly: No, not these days. It’s not a quick thing either. And as I said, a lot of the benefits really come out of these grassroots efforts. So being able to show, well, here are other companies in our space, in our industry that are doing this.
Maggie: I think we’ve touched on a lot of great information. Is there anything that you feel like you haven’t shared that the community needs to know about, about any of these options?
Kelly: Well, I think if I were to share anything, it would be that it’s really important to understand your choices and it’s really important to know that there’s no rule book for this. There’s not a plan to follow. It’s your plan.
and getting financial clarity, getting clarity about the process and the steps and the timeline that’s in front of you before you jump in if you can, I think is a very, very important part of the journey. And don’t be afraid of the money. Don’t be afraid of the money because there are resources that are out there.
There are foundations giving [00:34:00] money to families who are doing grants or who are doing adoption, and also surrogacy. There are lenders out there. You know, fundraising is very possible. I’ve never seen communities come together like I’ve seen them with adoption and surrogacy. Let your community come together and just let them, let them be a part of, not just the money part of it, but just the community and the journey itself.
Maggie: takes a community to raise a kid. Right? or multiple of ’em. It takes all hands.
Kelly: said
Maggie: Yeah. And so Kelly, there is a question we like to ask all of our guests. And after your experience helping you know, your own family grow and all these other families grow, what does financial freedom mean to you?
Kelly: I’m sure you realize that it is different for everyone. For me, it really is about choices. It really is about being able to I’m privileged, I’m so privileged to get up and do this every day, right? So, being able to create that financial freedom for myself has been, has been very important to [00:35:00] me.
But also being able to have choices every day of, how I conduct my day, the choices that I make, the clarity of those choices. I guess that’s really for me, what is the most important thing is being able to have the freedom of choice.
Maggie: Yeah. I love that. Well, thank you so much for coming on, sharing your expertise and helping all these families become families. ’cause I know it’s a very exciting opportunity and there’s so many ways to go about it. So we appreciate you being in this space and sharing your expertise. Yeah. And so until next time, be financially fearless.
Outro: You’ve been listening to Women Money, the shit we don’t talk about. Now it’s time to take what you’ve learned and make bold moves towards financial independence. Stay in the know by joining our newsletter for exclusive tools, resources, and updates that keep you financially fearless. Head to PurseStrings. co and sign up today. Need a financial professional who gets it? Turn to PurseStrings Curated Directory, your go to resource for financial experts who know how to [00:36:00] put you first. Love this episode? Leave us a review and help us empower even more women to own their financial power. Until next time, be financially fearless.
How to Take a Career Break Without Going Broke with Katrina McGhee
What if the real risk isn’t leaving your job… but staying?
This week, we’re joined by Katrina McGhee, a career break and sabbatical coach who helps high-achieving women step off the ladder, reclaim their time, and come back to a life that feels even better.
Katrina shares her own story of walking away from a six-figure career with just $1,500 in savings, and how she turned that bold decision into a 20-month life-changing break.
We dive into what it actually takes to plan a sabbatical, how to shift from fear to strategy, and why taking a break might be the most powerful investment you ever make in yourself.
Katrina reminds us that a break isn’t about walking away from your life. It’s about coming back to it stronger, clearer, and more aligned. If you’ve ever felt burned out, stuck, or like there has to be more than just working nonstop… join us for next week’s Money Talks “How to Financially Plan for a Career Break”. Click here to registerfor FREE and bring your questions!
Join Katrina’s free workshop on May 13th on how to Take a Break Without Falling Behind
Have questions? Click this to check out our expert Q&A for tips from industry experts, tailored to help women address their most common financial concerns.
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Barbara Provost, EdD and Maggie Nielsen, MBA are the co-founders of Purse Strings, a national platform helping women make confident financial decisions by connecting them with vetted financial professionals who truly understand women’s lives and money needs. Purse Strings connects women across the U.S. with vetted financial professionals who specialize in supporting women through divorce, money transitions, and financial independence.
Full Episode Transcript
(This transcript was generated using AI, so please excuse any misspellings or errors)
Maggie:[00:00:00] My cheeks hurt from smiling.
Dr. Barb: That’s a good thing.
Maggie: I know.
Dr. Barb: It’s because you’re so giddy about what we just talked about.
Maggie: I love to travel. I wanna travel more. And it’s silly ’cause I use money as an excuse, which is not great for my community, that I’m empowered to be financially fearless. There’s so many different competing priorities. I feel like now travel’s become so much easier. But even when you were young and single. You would tell me when you went to Barcelona with your friends and you took yourself on a couple trips too, and I just feel you’re still talking about that, right? , These are the investments that keep coming back to you and fun memories and deepened friendships, and.
Dr. Barb: Yes. I’m a firm believer in travel with your family, with your friends in travel experiences. I don’t think I could travel the year around the world because I also like to come home.
Maggie: I was like, you love your routine and you’re bed.
Dr. Barb: I do, but I don’t mind leaving it either and enjoying, travel. But. I love the whole thinking of, just throwing out everything up in the [00:01:00] air and saying, you know what, it doesn’t have to be at 65.
You can take a month, two month, three months, and more a year, maybe 20 months, and just continue traveling, right? As long as you make a plan. Plan the work, and work the plan or plan to travel and travel.
Maggie: There’s just so many things that are so different. I think when you’re young, you have the flexibility and more of the ease and less medication and just all the things to manage where, you can just be so much more flexible at that time.
And yeah, there are big earning years, but they’re also a big living years. And so we gotta live it up. And I think so often it’s then you get married and you have the kids and you settle down. It’s what if I don’t wanna settle down? What if I wanna go bing, bang, boom, around the earth? It’s a big earth. I gotta see it all.
Dr. Barb: I know, and it’s doable. That’s the cool thing. It is so doable. We have to reframe that thinking and plan how to finance it. And we talk about all of that on this podcast. Exactly. All of it.
Maggie: Let’s not let them wait anymore. Let’s just dive in.
Dr. Barb: Okay. It’s so much fun.
[00:02:00] Gloria Steinem once said, we will never solve the feminization of power until we solve the masculinity of wealth. Barbara Provost and Maggie Nielsen are the team at purse strings that will help you navigate the ins and outs of financial independence so that you can be financially fearless. This is women in money, the shit we don’t talk about.
Maggie: All righty. Today we have Katrina McGhee on the podcast, and we are so excited when we reached out to her as I feel like everyone’s living these such long lives right now, and it can’t all be work. And then sometimes people hit retirement and we’re not like as physically capable to do all the things we wanted to do.
And so Katrina is expert on sabbaticals, and so I can’t wait to get into this. So before we dive into all our questions, Katrina, could you introduce yourself to the audience a little bit about who you are [00:03:00] and what you do?
Katrina: Yeah, absolutely. I am a career break and sabbatical coach, so I like to say that I help people who’ve chased the gold stars and climb the ladder, get off so that they can reclaim their time, take some rest, have some fun, live a life, and come back to a version of life that feels a hundred times better.
I am a corporate survivor myself. I had my first career as a healthcare actuary. Left that to go get my MBA, switched careers to market research. Worked at a really big company, out in Minnesota and had like a moment of, of conscious awareness that I was not on the right path anymore and I wasn’t doing what I wanted to do, so I ended up taking a life changing career break that lasted 20 months.
I came back and landed five jobs in five weeks, and that sort of paved the way for me to do the work that I do now.
Maggie: So let’s just like start right there. ’cause the first time I read that I was like, most of us can’t even five job offers right now, it feels like. So first of all, 20 month break, that’s a long time wouldn’t ruin your career? I mean, I even see like a lot of moms who step out of the workforce and you [00:04:00] know, have to explain that break much less just wanting to see the world, which we love by the way.
Like no shame on that, but like how do you explain that to the corporate blah.
Katrina: A lot of it comes down to our belief. I like to tell my clients, it always starts with us first. I’ll be super transparent, I was scared, excited, right? That’s a word I like to use. That describes I think, a lot, the energy of taking a break or taking any really big risk.
You’re terrified and you’re also really freaking excited for this upcoming change. And so I wasn’t a hundred percent sure what would happen, but here’s what I knew, the cost of not answering the question. Like what would happen if I quit my job to do the thing I really wanted to do, which is travel around the world?
Like the cost of never answering that question felt so much bigger and it would haunt me so much more than like any disappointing outcome if I tried to do that thing and it didn’t work out the way that I wanted. So I basically like decided to, to like be honest and be transparent in that within myself, and I looked at what I had, right?
I love to look at the facts. [00:05:00] I’m smart. I went to a really good undergrad. I went to a top 20 MBA business school. I have people that love and support me, which is my network, right? I had done a successful pivot in the past, so. I think it’s really important that you look at the assets that you have already in place as you think about, could I be resilient?
Can I figure this out? I really believed in my ability to figure it out, and it just felt like, I don’t wanna have this unanswered question of like, I’m I’m like 90 years old and I’m like, well, it would’ve been nice to travel around the world for a year, but I was always too afraid to try. Like, I didn’t want that.
To be my story. And so I didn’t know for sure, but I really believed in the base and the foundation that I had, and I was like, I found a career when I had no work experience when I was just a little 21-year-old undergrad with a math degree that was like, I don’t know what actuarial science is, but I guess I’ll give it a try.
Right? So I was like, this girl can do that. She can do a lot of things.
Maggie: I love that. And sometimes we do have to look back and be like, well, I’ve proved it to myself time and time again before so [00:06:00] I can trust myself this time.
Dr. Barb: Sometimes we have to ask, answer the question, what’s the worst that could happen? You could go back and get a job.
Katrina: Exactly. And even if it’s a job you don’t love as much as the one you had, like jobs you can change, right? You could do that job for a year, then find a better job.
Maggie: And so since this is a money podcast, like how did you see that you had the money to do this? You know, where did that come from? Did you have a good savings? Let’s get into kind of the nitty gritty on that.
Katrina: Maggie. LOL is is my answer to that because I had no money when I decided I wanted to do this. What I did have is about 50 something thousand dollars worth of MBA student loans. I had a townhouse that was underwater because of the housing market and the impacts of that.
So I was renting it out. I owned it. I was renting it out. In Atlanta, but I was like losing money or breaking even every month. And, and basically I had a great paying job, but I had $1,500 of savings in my bank account. So once I had the realization that I really wanted to do this, like, it kind of hit me like an [00:07:00] epiphany.
‘Cause I had been working with a life coach trying to find like a third career that’s gonna make me feel happy and fulfilled. And then it’s like, no, I just want a break. I wanna go see some things and do something and live a life, you know? And once I had that burning desire, I had to look at the facts and I was like, I don’t know how a girl affords this because this is not my reality.
So I did what I could do, which is figure out how much money do I actually have to save to take a break, which at that time I thought it would be a one year around the world trip. I did the math, I love spreadsheets. Former actuary $38,000. So okay, I have to come up with $38,000. How am I gonna do that?
I’m just gonna start shifting my values to really align my spending and what I say I value are gonna come together. And I just revisited the way I was spending money and I started slowly saving a couple hundred dollars a month, then 500, then 700, then a thousand, then 1200, and it just started snowballing and I saved $40,000 in 18 months.
And I put my student loans into forbearance, some for deferment. [00:08:00] Depending on what the loan was. And then I went and I traveled around the world and I spent most of that money. I did have a buffer and a cushion for like if life happened, which it did happen while I was on my break in several different ways.
But for me it was like I have to create the means to do this because like. I need this. And so I was very motivated and I really used my math skills and my spreadsheeting to help me figure out a plan to make it happen. But I made really hard choices or big choices during that time, like I was in my early thirties.
Very successful like six figure salary. And I moved in with a roommate, right. I let my very posh, wonderful apartment in the uptown area go. I moved into a nice, a very nice condo, but I had a roommate and you know, that cut my expenses down, but I didn’t feel super grown up for doing that. Not that there’s anything wrong with it, but it, but it was like I was making
sacrifices and trade-offs that were so in alignment with this bigger goal. And that really helped me make momentum towards my goal. And then I [00:09:00] came back from that break and I paid off all my student loans, which some of my peers still haven’t done. I paid off all my MBA loans in less than two years, taking a pay cut, right?
So I took a pay cut from where I left, halfway through because I wanted to work for this startup, and I thought it would be really fun. And so my salary coming back was about at parody, but then a year later. I took that pay cut to switch and I still paid off my loans in less than two years, and it was because of the skills I learned while I was saving for my break with that burning desire that I was able to apply those same skills to.
Wouldn’t it be so amazing to be debt free? Wouldn’t it be so amazing to not have to work in corporate ever again if I don’t want to because I have financial freedom in my own context and and definition of it to just. Not have to be spending hundreds or thousands of dollars every month paying bills for things I made decisions on in the past.
So it really served me not only to get on the break, but then to become debt free a couple years later.
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Maggie: Well, I love the transparency. I appreciate that, and that it’s not just like you had this epiphany and the next day you bought your flight. Like no, you put in 18 months to that which is. Uh, the days are long. The years are short, right? And so I know that time you’re probably itching like just to get out to do the thing, but it is, sometimes you need that, that driver to get you there because I know sometimes it’s like paying debt, being debt free isn’t as invigorating.
Like, what’s that next thing that’s gonna get me? Because just paying on the debt is not like getting me up in the morning. Actually, once you have that goal, then everything was like, then I can make it happen, you know? But if the goal’s not titillating enough, then you’re like, Hmm, I’ll get there when I get there.
Katrina: Yeah. You gotta have a real crystallizing why? You’ve gotta be clear on the [00:12:00] why, and it has to be something that like makes your soul speak to you, like it makes your heart sing.
Dr. Barb: I am amazed. So when you do your coaching, just side note, do you teach people how to budget and save so that they can do what they want? Is that part of your coaching?
Katrina: It’s something I can do. It’s not formally part of it because, I mean, it’s, I’ve learned this, right? I’ve been doing this now for almost nine years, and I’ve learned a lot of people that are at a place where they wanna invest in a one-on-one coach. Probably have some savings already, right? So they’re like, I’m ready to make that investment.
So I think it’s a biased subset of people that make their way to do consults with me and hire me. But I have offered resources in the past. I have the tracker that I actually used to figure out what the budget was, estimate the cost, and then like make that saving that $40,000 happen. And even in my book, taking a Career Break For Dummies, I have a whole entire like section on how to get the finances in order, because that is a big part of it for some people, but a lot of people actually.
Can’t afford it at the time that they wanna take it, but they really struggle to give themselves permission [00:13:00] to invest in the break. They view it as a really crazy expense irresponsible, sort of like like, I’m just gonna let it all go and flush it down the toilet. And so it’s reframing it even as an investment and understanding what that would, would do for them, to help them justify spending that money.
Maggie: Yeah, I’ll pay you back tenfold.
Dr. Barb: yeah, with layoffs and burnout, which is real, right? People are struggling a lot. How do women shift from panic mode to strategic mode when facing a career break?
Katrina: Yeah, so you know, if it is voluntary, right? That’s one thing. You get to plan for the success and kind of be intentional about how you’re gonna do it. But if you are landing yourself. An involuntary, sort of layoff situation. I like to say you might not have chosen the start date, but you can still own this experience.
The length of time that you’re actually on a break will vary by your comfort zone, your desire for what you wanna do for this time, but also obviously your finances, right? But even if you can only take a month or two months, I really encourage people to use a [00:14:00] break, especially if you find yourself there involuntarily to think about and reflect on.
Who am I today? What do I actually even want? I like to parallel it to dating, right? Like if you are in a place where you’re just desperate to find a partner and you’re like, I’ll take anyone. Just, do you have a pulse? Will you not like like scream at me, like I’ll, I’ll date anyone. I just don’t wanna be alone.
Like when you’re going up to people with that energy, no one wants to date you. It’s like, why? Like it’s the desperation, right? Versus. If you like got broken up with and you weren’t expecting it, and you go inward and you do the reflecting and you realize like, I am like worthy, I am valuable, I am grounded.
Like I don’t have to prove my worth. Like I am clear on it. Now I got recalibrated and I’m also clear on who I want to be with and what a good partner would be for me in the season of my life. You can show up to dating with the energy of like, yeah, I’m confident. I’m excited. Like, let me get to know you and figure out if this is a good fit.
And so I encourage people, right? Especially if it’s an involuntary situation, to be able [00:15:00] to give themselves the space for the equivalent of that to be like, think about the skills I have, the network, the interest, the strengths, but also what do I want for my career and how my life and career kind of blend together.
Because how you show up in an interview will be so much more powerful. And how you represent yourself in conversation will be so much more powerful if you’re sold on yourself and you’re clear on what you want, and you’re very directed in that versus like a pray and spray type of situation where you’re just desperately trying to find something.
Maggie: Really with that same energy, you could probably get more money, more of what you want ’cause that same energy you are on being sporadic. You just send to figuring out who you are and what you want and really being direct. And so what do you find is like one of the biggest financial mistakes women make before taking a sabbatical?
Katrina: Yeah, so I would say there are a couple, I can give you three pretty basic ones. One is not building in a buffer for emergencies, right? So if you’re in the saving and planning stage where you’re saving for it or you’re planning for it proactively, it’s gonna be a voluntary thing. You [00:16:00] just wanna make sure that you’re thinking about those emergencies, unexpected cost, and also leaving yourself in today’s job market, just in case, right?
A longer runway towards reentering. Right? So just having enough set aside for a reentry period so you don’t have to switch from, I had an amazing break and now I’m super desperate because the break is over and I have to get a job in a week. So I definitely recommend thinking about that, having a buffer for that.
Number two is considering talking to your. Advisors or whoever, like if you need to, but, but considering low income and no income tax year benefits. So again, if you’re proactively planning for a break, thinking about things like Roth conversions, capital gains just potential benefits that might come to you from having a year where you have lower income or no income, and being proactive about that.
And the third one kind of swings to the other side of thinking about the permission to spend money and the reduction of money, panic. It’s helpful to set kind of a red line number in your mind [00:17:00] of when you wanna hit the panic button, if you choose to go on a break. So I had a red light number for myself.
It was really low. It was probably like about $10,000, but it’s like when my savings gets to this number, I need to reassess where I’m at on my break. I need to ask myself, like, do I have clarity? Am I ready to reenter? Am I clear on what that would be? And if I’m not ready. Do I have to get ready?
Because like, this is a threshold where the discomfort suddenly becomes, it’s like the like everything starts shaking in the car. It’s like, this is where the, the wheels feel like they’re gonna start to come off. So let me reassess. What happens is a lot of times, right, like you’ll be on your break and the money will be going down, down, down, and you’re not making any to replenish it.
And your brain will start freaking out because for so long you might have been saving and you might see the number go up, up, up. And it can be hard to actually pour into the things you said you wanted to do on the break that are ultimately what are gonna create the. Best version of you coming out of the break that can crush it in the job [00:18:00] market and crush it in the interviews, right?
So it’s, it’s like you wanna invest in fulfilling the purpose and the themes of why you’re taking this break. And so having that red line number can be very helpful when your brain starts to get really activated and panic about spending money. And it’s like, no, no. This money actually has a purpose. It’s an investment.
I’m fulfilling my purpose in themes, but when it gets down to X, whatever your X is, I will reassess and if I need to reenter, I will start applying for jobs.
Maggie: Yeah, that’s a great idea to have. Especially having that red line. And I think a lot of people also in retirement kind of have that fear of like, we’ve been our whole lives trying to fill up this bucket that when you start taking it out, you get really anxious and it’s like, actually that’s what you worked your whole life for and, and really we worked our whole life to.
To go see the world and have these experiences. And so I feel like those are very, similar. Did you like pick up any odd jobs while you were traveling? Did you earn any income while traveling at all?
Katrina: Not at all. Oh, actually I had a fun, it was not a job, but I did pick up like a thousand dollars. But it’s a [00:19:00] very odd wave, I will tell you, ’cause it’s kind of funny. When I was on the road trip portion of my career break, I did a three and a half month road trip through the US in a big circle. My then boyfriend, we are no longer together, but he was a really great supporter.
He came along for that road trip portion of my break, and I love, like slot machines. Not like a, I am not a gambling addict, but like, it’s always was fun to me to go in and see the lights and like, do I get the bonus round? You know, like it’s just, I just like, it’s like entertainment. And so we had this system where when we were driving, if we saw a billboard for a casino and they had a player’s club, which is where they’ll sometimes give you like $10, $20 to like start, you know.
Get the membership and then start, we would go and we would never spend the money that we want and we would just put it into a pot. And so we went around the US and three months later, I think it was like something like $1,200 that we had just made, like collected. And I was like, this is great. So that was a really fun thing.
But outside of that, no, it was just me being on a break. I never really picked up any side income outside of that.
Dr. Barb: Wow. Yeah. Sounds like fun. So [00:20:00] someone’s listening to this and they’re thinking, I wanna do that. I wanna go do that, but I’m really scared about my finances. What’s the practical first steps she should take?
Katrina: Yeah, I mean, first of all, know what your number is. Focus on the facts. A lot of times it feels overwhelming. It feels too expensive, too far away, too scary. Like what would your version of an ideal break cost you. That’s really important because once you start with that, if it’s really high and you’re like, I’ll never get there, you can walk it back down.
You can say, okay, well I would love to do six months. That is not gonna happen, but what would a three month break look like? Or you know, I thought I wanted to travel Europe. I. But it’s really expensive, but maybe I could make this work in Southeast Asia. And so there are ways that you can sort of like narrow in, but you gotta start with actually knowing that number and also understanding your finances, right?
Knowing exactly how much money you have access to, and then figuring out where the gap is between what you have and what you think you need to take [00:21:00] this break. And understanding like your monthly expenses and those ongoing expenses. So I think having like a factual sort of snapshot of those key indicators.
That’s critical. And number two is be able to articulate the purpose and the themes for the break. Because when you can back to the why, right? Like Maggie mentioned, like having a really strong compelling why will absolutely unlock creativity, ingenuity, and resourcefulness. And so you’ve got to connect to why would I even take this break?
And what would be the three to four things like pillars, themes that I would focus on to fulfill the purpose. And when you have that picture, suddenly you see the bigger deal that is like really at stake for you taking this break. And it’s like, oh yeah, like I gotta make this happen. And so it can really help you know, kind of like calm some of the fears.
I won’t say all of them, but it can really start to like bring a clear picture of what would make it worth it. Right?
Maggie: So how did you start to guesstimate how much your journey might [00:22:00] cost you with? I mean, if you go to Thailand, that’s gonna be very different than if you go to the south of France or something like that, you know? Or if you’re going. All these flights versus just driving in a car around the United States.
So how did you start making that plan or guesstimating the cost? Because everything could be all over the place.
Katrina: Yeah, absolutely. And you know, even my clients have like very different types of breaks. Some stay at home, some have partners who can like, contribute to the household. Some of my clients are breadwinners and so like, it looks very different for the family when they’re not working. So there are all different ways to do it, but for me.
You know what I did and what I recommend, I broke it into chunks. So to your point, you know I’m doing a road trip. Okay? I’m doing a road trip through the us I have friends, but I also am gonna have to do some hotels. So I’m mapping out my stay and I’m trying to guess like, okay, if I’m doing a big circle about what percentage of the nights would be with someone that would just host me versus on my own for hotels.
Then I’m setting a budget for that, right? I’m saying I don’t wanna spend more than $75 a night on a hotel on average. And then [00:23:00] I’m gonna track that and sometimes I can spend more, but then sometimes I’ve gotta use points to spend less, right? And kind of make that average work. And then when I’m going to travel, I’m doing Europe as an estimate, and then I’m doing Southeast Asia as an estimate.
And I did South America as its own estimate, right? So buckets of time, Europe, probably two months. What do I think the main things, travel, lodging, food, entertainment, what do I think those things are gonna cost me? Same thing for Southeast Asia, right? I did book a ticket to, to Southeast Asia using points, which really helped reduce some of that cost as well.
I think it was 80,000 points I used on Delta to get there, but that was really wonderful that I could do that. And then I was at home for months of my break and that was a very different financial picture. My mom was like you can keep, I sold most of my things. I had a Toyota Corolla and what would fit in that car I brought with me, so I just shoved it into a closet.
Mom was like, you can come home, you can hang out here. I use that time to reflect, decompress, be at home for the holidays, and so financially like that was a really great time. Right Then. It’s just my life [00:24:00] insurance, my car insurance, like it’s. The very basic maintenance things, but it wasn’t the added expenses.
And so I basically broke it up into these different portions where the cost would be really different, or, or really variable from one another. And I just tried to estimate for the length of time, like what I thought that picture looked like, and then I just would round up to the nearest, you know, 1000, 2000 and then I added a buffer in case I was wrong, right.
In case I was off on something.
Maggie: The key is the buffer.
Dr. Barb: Did you hit your target?
Katrina: I did, that is how my 12 month break turned into a 20 month break. I was eight months in and I was tracking what I was spending in my little spreadsheet, and I was like, holy crap, I have so much money left. Like, I thought I was gonna be close to broke right now. And then I was like, what do I do with this?
Do I pay off my loans? Do I go back to work? Do I like, I don’t. And then I was like. I’m just gonna keep traveling. And then I did and it turned into 20 months and I do not regret it, you know? But that was why I got to turn a 12 month break into a 20 month break is because I was doing such a good job.
Like I overestimated and I was just becoming really good with spending [00:25:00] money doing things I wanted, but like being very thoughtful about where it was spending my money.
Maggie: It’s not very often we overestimate and spend less. So that’s such a nice turn of events right there.
Katrina: Yeah. Plot twist in a good way.
Maggie: So what does kind of a career break reveal about how a woman values herself and not just her paycheck? Because I feel like you just learned so much about you and have so much growth personally.
Katrina: I mean, I definitely did. It was life changing, and I think that is always my goal for anyone that comes in contact with me, whether they work with me or just happen to like be in my world. I want them to see it as an opportunity to change their life for the better. I think what it signals, right, when a woman is like, I’m ready to like do this thing.
Like what am I signaling instead of thinking about the negative that people associate, like, I’m irresponsible or I’m just throwing it all away. I think it’s the opposite. I think that it’s signaling. I prioritize my own wellbeing. It’s like a middle finger to the status quo that says, as a woman, [00:26:00] everyone else comes first.
Like, I come last. Does everybody else have what they need before I focus on myself? Like this is about you prioritizing your wellbeing. It’s about saying and demonstrating, Hey, I’m worth an investment. Where the ROI is about who I become and how I experience my life versus some like financial return on paper.
You know, like those are the only ones that get to make sense. Is it gonna boost my career immediately or is it gonna like return my finances? It’s like, yeah, but also me, like my wellbeing, my happiness, my fulfillment. And I think it’s also a symbol of believing in your own potential. You have to believe like I did, right.
That I have the tools I need to come back even better because I see the value of what I have created and what I’ve done for other people and other companies, and I believe in the potential that I can be even more. And that pouring into myself and getting really freaking excited about my life and getting my spark back and doing some stuff and resting and recovering, like the potential of who that version of [00:27:00] me is, is even bigger and better
Dr. Barb: I love that. Giving the finger to the status quo. Good for you.
Yeah,
Maggie: And I’ve gotta ask, how much of this travel did you do alone?
Because I feel like that’s a big thing for women is like that’s a big step, is like doing an alone trip. A lot of people say like this is the first time I’ve been outta the country by myself or doing it by myself. Which I think is another even added just growth and value of like, I could be independent.
I can take myself out to dinner, I don’t meet these others and I can meet people. Right.
Katrina: Absolutely. I had only, I did study abroad my last semester in business school in Barcelona, but you know, you’re with a cohort of people and a bunch of other students and so you’re doing things with them, even like the traveling to other countries in Europe, within Europe you’re doing it with them.
I had only taken one trip by myself. And that was getting from Barcelona to Belgium, and traveling in Belgium for like a long weekend and then, and I think in Brussels and then coming back. That was it before I took my break. So I absorbed at that time Instagram really wasn’t a thing.
There weren’t like vlogs and things like that. [00:28:00] It was basically travel blogs and books. And so I was reading, reading, reading and just absorbing all this information to psych myself up and feel like I was packing and preparing as best I could. But it was really scary and really hard. Whenever I thought about doing it as a solo female travel.
But I just knew I didn’t, again, want that to be, I didn’t want fear to be a thing that stopped me from living the life I wanted and getting to experience what I really wanted to experience in life. And it was life changing. So I did have a boyfriend at that time. He came with me on the road trip through the us, which is where we’re both from.
So that didn’t feel so hard, for me, but then we were apart. He did come visit me for a couple of weeks in Argentina. But outside of that, when I was living in Argentina, when I was in Columbia, when I went to Europe, when I spent four months in Southeast Asia, like all of that was solo me by myself, I do have a lot of clients, even like solo females who do travel. But I’m finding that for a lot of people, the version of a break that they want and need today involves some travel, but it’s also some [00:29:00] downtime. It’s decompression. It’s not all just like this one way ticket to go around the world and like backpack your way around.
It’s like, I wanna go somewhere and be in a different environment that like brings me alive and like feels fun and just really switches up the mindset and the routine that I’ve been in. But then I also wanna come home and I wanna like. Take a course on this. I wanna do a Pilates like class. I wanna go to the pottery studio.
I wanna have community. I wanna spend time with people I care about. And so I’m finding it’s oftentimes a mix of those things for a lot of people that I’m working with today.
Maggie: Yeah, that makes a lot of sense is sometimes we just don’t even relax at home. You know? I know some people they’re like, finally I could like maybe do that project I’ve been thinking about or cook a meal that I’ve been wanting to try or just something relaxing. You know? It can’t always be go, go, go.
Dr. Barb: Mm-hmm. For sure. Your story is really amazing. And tell us a little bit about the coaching that you do.
Katrina: Yeah, well, I’m a certified life coach. I just believe that breaks are catalyst for a better life. They’re like a portal, right? The break itself won’t change your life, but who you get to [00:30:00] become through that experience can really change everything.
And so I work with people in a one-on-one way when they want their handheld and they wanna do some really deep, reflective work about who am I now and how do I design this break so that it gives me everything I need. To come out of it on the other side, really excited, maybe even rethinking how life and work fit together.
And then I also am a co-founder of the Break Space community, which is a place where it’s a global community where people come together whether they’re thinking about a break, planning a break, or actually on a break, and they get to see each other’s little faces on the screen and share best practices.
But I have found there’s nothing quite like seeing like 30 other human’s faces on the screen that are in the exact same place that you’re at when you’re in this. Very unconventional, sort of like scary, exciting place of wanting to take a break. And so I think it’s really important to have a sense of community to be able to wrap around that.
So yeah, those are the two ways that I help people on the journey. In addition to having a book and a podcast all about like nerding out about all things career break.
Maggie:[00:31:00] I love it. And so what’s your kind of sta is this just then your full-time gig now and you do your nomad as well now? So like traveling has now become the career.
Katrina: Yeah, I’m like a slow mad. I just sort of wander around. A lot of times it might be even work related where I’m just sort of like, Hey, there’s something to speak at, or like something to do over here. So I’ll just extend my trip to California. I’ll see my friends in Seattle, like that kind of thing.
But yeah, I’ve been doing this full time since 2020, and it’s been really amazing and it’s really like grown. I mean, it was, I gotta be honest, it was really crazy and out there to be talking about sabbaticals and career breaks in like 2017. I don’t even know how I had the courage to do it, but like it is so much more of a thing now than it, than it ever was and I just see it continuing to grow.
But yeah, I do this full time. I love it. I’m super passionate about it. And then I do travel sometimes for fun, a lot of times for work. But I just kind of move around, roam around.
Maggie: And so where’s the next trip to?
Katrina: Australia. So I’ve never been, I’m like excited to [00:32:00] go, but my business partner, my co-owner of Break Space actually lived in Amsterdam, but she is an Australian citizen, so she and her family moved back to Australia officially. I’ve met her in Amsterdam several times, but I’ve never been to Australia.
And she’s like, okay, well we got a house on the beach. They live on the beach. I mean, across the street from the beach, but like at the beach. And I’m like, oh my God, this is gonna be so good. So we’re gonna do like a work retreat and I’m gonna go out there for a couple weeks and travel around. And it’ll be really fun.
So that happens in about, six weeks. So I’m looking forward to
Maggie: Oh, and do you splurge on like a first class ticket for a long flight like that
Katrina: Oh, Maggie. Okay. So the universe loves me is what I’ve decided.
My sister. Love her. She actually works for a major airline and she decided several years ago that I get to be her companion because she really supports the work I do and the mission I’m on. And so I’ve been her companion for like six years, and so I actually will get to fly to Australia.
I will have to fly standby, but I will get to fly for just the taxes and fees. So I’m guessing that will probably be like [00:33:00] $300 or something, but it will be a very affordable flight.
Maggie: I gotta get a new sister.
Dr. Barb: Or tell your sister, forget this doctor stuff. Go go work for an airline.
Maggie: Yeah. Go work for an airline. I could use some flights. I could be your companion.
Katrina: Well, my sister was a PA so she actually was like a medical professional and she’s just like, I wanna live a life of freedom. And so that’s one of the two jobs. She does some health stuff on the side, like very like eastern meets western med consulting, but she does have the airline job for the flight benefits.
I’m like, thank you
Maggie: Ugh,
those are benefits for
sure.
Dr. Barb: here’s a mom question. How much does your mom worry about you?
Katrina: Oh my gosh. My mom has like a worry track that I don’t think I could ever fully mute. But her level of worry, I mean, ’cause I started my career break in 2013, so I’ve sort of like inoculated her and sort of like numbed her senses. I’ve like worn her down. So after 13 years. You know, she’s just like, please tell me where you’re going.
And then she’s like, okay, please tell me when you think you’ll be back. But I would say her worry, like if it was a radio dial, was like at a 10 right when I was traveling [00:34:00] alone for the first time, 10. And then over time, like every year it comes down like a half a notch to a notch. So she’s probably like a four to a five right now.
Dr. Barb: Okay.
Maggie: such a mom
question.
Dr. Barb: It is, but I get it. I mean, you’ll get it someday maybe. I don’t know.
Maggie: So Katrina, this has been so much fun, but there is a question we like to ask all of our guests. And so after building your entire career around helping women take intentional breaks, what does financial freedom mean to you now?
Katrina: Yeah, it absolutely means not letting money stand between me and my dreams, self care and my biggest desires, right? So being able to have a financial situation where I don’t let money be the thing that stops me from living the life that I wanna live. I’m a good steward of my money, and I also believe in my resilience and ability to make more and figure it out.
And so for me, like having achieved financial freedom and like encouraging my clients to go for that, it’s like what do you need your life to look like? So that money is not the thing that holds you back from your [00:35:00] life.
Maggie: I preach it, girl. I love it. Thank you so much for coming on today and sharing the story and sharing your expertise. I thought it was very inspirational. I know our community’s gonna love it and I just think this is exactly what you said. You know, women put everybody else first and so I think this is a great opportunity for them to put their selves first and also not wait until we’re 65, 70, 75 to do these things, but do it when we are capable and we’re young and, it’s just such a different experience I think at that time.
Not like I’m 65 yet. I’ll let you know when I get there, but we appreciate it, Katrina. This has been awesome.
Dr. Barb: Yeah, it’s been fun. And we’ll put your book and your podcast and all your links in the show notes so everyone can get ahold of you and, keep on doing what you’re doing. And I hope women listening out there step out on that skinny limb where you’re a little bit scared, but talk to Katrina and live the life of your dreams.
Maggie: Until next time, be financially fearless.
Outro: You’ve been listening to Women Money, the shit we don’t talk about. Now it’s time to take what you’ve learned and make bold moves towards financial independence. [00:36:00] Stay in the know by joining our newsletter for exclusive tools, resources, and updates that keep you financially fearless. Head to PurseStrings. co and sign up today. Need a financial professional who gets it? Turn to PurseStrings Curated Directory, your go to resource for financial experts who know how to put you first. Love this episode? Leave us a review and help us empower even more women to own their financial power. Until next time, be financially fearless.
The Truth About Franchising- Real Money and Real Risk with Meg Schmitz
Franchising might be the most overlooked path to financial freedom.
This week, we’re joined by Meg Schmitz, a franchise consultant, business owner, and investor who has spent decades helping people build scalable businesses. From owning five Great Clips locations to becoming a single parent with no financial support, Meg shares exactly how she took control of her financial future and never looked back.
Meg opens up about the moment she realized she had to step up as the decision-maker in her business, how she built confidence through hard choices, and why so many women underestimate what they’re capable of.
We also dive into the real truth about franchising. Not the myths. Not the noise. The actual opportunities available and how to approach them strategically.
Meg reminds us that confidence isn’t something you’re born with. It’s built through action, decisions, and learning as you go. Join us for next week’s Money Talks “Franchising 101- Understanding this Model as a Business Investment”. Click here to registerfor FREE and bring your questions!
Have questions? Click this to check out our expert Q&A for tips from industry experts, tailored to help women address their most common financial concerns.
Subscribe to our newsletter to receive financial tips delivered weekly here!
Barbara Provost, EdD and Maggie Nielsen, MBA are the co-founders of Purse Strings, a national platform helping women make confident financial decisions by connecting them with vetted financial professionals who truly understand women’s lives and money needs. Purse Strings connects women across the U.S. with vetted financial professionals who specialize in supporting women through divorce, money transitions, and financial independence.
Full Episode Transcript
(This transcript was generated using AI, so please excuse any misspellings or errors)
[00:00:00]
Maggie: All right, mom. Since your family ownaed a seven 11, were you ever maybe I’ll own a franchise someday?
Dr. Barb: No.
Maggie: Hard? No
Dr. Barb: and I think that was because it was not work I wanted to do. In my life. So a lot of it was customer service. Of course at that time it was from seven to 11. Now they’re 24 hours, and it was 365 days a year. So there was no days off. And my mom would close on Christmas, so we could have Christmas together, but that was only for a short time.
And it was hard work because of the element of it being a customer service base. I could see if it was something more manageable. Running something like air conditioning and heating where, you have your times where you schedule people to go, people who are expert to do that work.
So you’re more behind the scenes, more administrative, you’re running the business. Whereas when we were in the seven 11, we were really. Roll up your sleeves. You’re working in the [00:01:00] business.
Maggie: That’s why your dad bought it is ’cause he had all the employees.
Dr. Barb: I know.
Maggie: Were you there at all, like when he bought it or sold it? Were you part of that?
Dr. Barb: I was very young when he bought it. I think it was only like in fourth grade. But it did my mother ran it and we. Worked with our siblings and we had a, I think it taught me a really good work ethic because even when we were in grade school, we all had. Tasks to do and jobs to do.
And we all had we could work a cash register, we could stock shelves and all of that. I worked with my siblings. We have some very funny stories from working there together. We were known throughout the neighborhood as a family business there. I think they did well in the business, but it got to the point where it was just, too much work that, some of the sibs were moving on to college and things like that, and so my mom sold the business.
Maggie: Whenever you guys all get together, there’s always new funny stories about the seven 11. Like one of ’em was like [00:02:00] asked a customer if they’re gonna pay for the orange that they put in their pocket. Like really just calling them out. Or one, like you guys answered the phone in a goofy way, but it was your mom on the other line.
And she was like, you better not be answering it like that.
Dr. Barb: I know we had some fun there and yeah, as young, children almost grade school, high school and getting into college, we had a lot of responsibility there. And yeah, my brother called out someone who had stuck some fruit in his pocket and an older gentleman that had gone to our store for a long time.
And I looked at my brother like, how could you say that to him? And then the guy pulled the fruit out of his pocket. He did steal it. It was always something.
Maggie: But you were really on like more of the boots on the ground and where I guess, mom and dad typically owned it, operated it. Do you know the books and things like that where you would see the profits?
Dr. Barb: Yes, exactly. But there’s it’s come a long way. Franchising, I believe. There’s so many other opportunities out there that I haven’t even thought of, and I was so glad to have Meg on our podcast because she just [00:03:00] showed how she owned so many franchises. I won’t say which one it was, but that she didn’t have any expertise in the franchise service.
And she was divorced raising a young child and she was running several of them. And the funny thing was is her son didn’t even know she was working ’cause she was always there for him, which is pretty amazing.
Maggie: I think there’s more places I go that are franchises that like I don’t even realize. And so every time we have, we’ve had a couple different franchising conversations now, and every time I’m like, so in more intrigued and I’m like, maybe this is the phase two of my journey. You know what I mean? It just seems so interesting and it does seem, I don’t wanna use the word easier, but like it’s nice to walk in with some SOPs in place and having a team behind you who’s done this before and knows it’s successful and if you do it the right way, so it’s just such a fun opportunity. ’cause you’re still the boss, which we’d love to be the boss. But you [00:04:00] have a team still there to support you. So I’m excited that we had Meg on today to share more about franchising.
And I would love if any of our audience would write in, if they own a franchise. ’cause I’m curious like. How many franchise owners are out there in our community?
Dr. Barb: Yeah,
Maggie: so should we get started?
Dr. Barb: let’s do it.
Maggie: Meg, welcome to Women and Money. The shit we don’t talk about. I know we already got talking before we even started this podcast. So much good energy. So before we dive into all of that, can you share a little bit about who you are and the work that you’re doing?
Meg: Sure. The nuts and bolts of it is I am now 63. I have been a business owner. For decades, it was my husband at the time went to a franchise expo. I think I was 28. And he invested in a concept called Great Clips. Knew nothing about it, it doesn’t really matter, but he’s a shiny, sparkly kind of a guy.
And he quit after our first location got open. I’m a terrier and so women and money, I’m a terrier. Do not put my money [00:05:00] on the line. And think that I’m just gonna cower and back off. So that was a, an early lesson for me in needing to lean in and take control. We went from a single location, bought a second one, opened a third one, got divorced.
No alimony, no child support. Good luck with that. And so I said, okay, that’s fine. I’ll take ’em. I opened two more. Someone made me an offer I couldn’t refuse. I jumped the fence and went over to the franchise consulting side so that I can help people. And many of them are women who are looking for a diversification strategy.
So women with confidence people who are really looking for that safety net in their financial future. So that’s the world that I live in. I am now remarried and my husband and I have I lose count how many businesses that we have. And so I’m an employer, business owner, angel investor pretty involved human being in the world of business.
Dr. Barb: Wait, so how many Great Clips did you have?
Meg: Five.
Maggie:[00:06:00] and do you know anything about hair?
Meg: so beautiful thing about franchising is that they want people, franchise companies want people who can run a business. The role of the owner is more or less to hire the industry expert. And let them run the day-to-day of it. So, I got to five locations and there was an owner in the market who was having trouble finding real estate.
And so he cash on the barrel hu and he made me a seven figure offer and I took it.
Dr. Barb: Wow. So he bought all of them.
Meg: That was 2003. That was 2003. So that was a long time ago. I started the consulting side of things in 2002, so I was a single parent at that point. I have one son who’s now 35 and got a lot of great stories about his perspective on he, he’s so funny. After he graduated from college, he said, I know this is gonna sound really crazy, mom, but I thought you were just a divorced single stay at home mom
’cause you were there when I got on the bus [00:07:00] and you were there when I got off the bus.
Case in point for owning a business that doesn’t suck you in and make you do the work. I had an organization at that point of people who were quite capable and I managed the overview and that allowed me to be a flexible parent to parent my kid.
Maggie: I am like so impressed on so many areas already. First of all, I love that you opened up with your age because I think women just need to share their age and own it more. Like, I did all these things and then no grass is grown under your feet and your son doesn’t even know that you’re business owner running another business, doing all these things.
You’re not like running around frazzled. You’re just like, duh, that’s it. I’ve got people working for me. I mean, boss move right there.
Meg: Thank you. It took time to get the confidence and I think, we’ll get to that, particularly for your audience. It’s not like I fell off the back of a truck and I was born confident. I wasn’t at all. In fact, I struggled for a long time with. Anorexia, which is kind of how invisible can I be?
And worked my way out of that one as well. So challenges are really [00:08:00] just there to help us do better.
Maggie: Let’s dive into that while we’re here. Is like how did you build this confidence? I know it’s step by step and it’s kind of building blocks, right? It’s not like an all or nothing thing. And so what started building this confidence for you?
Meg: Number one, is I grew up in a household that was pretty affluent and and the conversation around money didn’t happen easily or naturally. And my mom is funny now, she’s, oh, Meg, you talk about money all the time. Yeah, because money is a tool. Money enables us to do so much more. So anyway, how did I start building The confidence was number one, I had to get away from my brother.
He was, he still is a toxic human being. And that formulated a lot of my self-esteem around being a woman being a girl. And so it was after, getting married, I did not marry the right person which a lot of underconfident women fall into that trap of marrying prematurely before they, we really know ourselves.
So what helped me a lot [00:09:00] was owning this business that my ex-husband didn’t. embrace the female persona. He didn’t embrace the creative side of the business, and so he immediately wanted to back away and I’m territorial. I’m about money. I was not going to. Lose. I was gonna win. So I started to realize just how type a and competitive I can be.
And so once I really leaned into it and started to understand where the problems in the business were that both were kind of like, Hey, it’s a franchise. Well, it’ll all get sorted out. Hear no evil. See no evil. It’ll all work out. But you’re an independent business owner. And there are decisions that needed to be made.
And one of the hardest decisions that was really formative for me is we were losing money handover fest and for an extended period of time. Now this goes way back, we didn’t have a security system. We, the point of sale software was pretty minuscule at that [00:10:00] point, but I knew that money was missing and as I figured out what was going on, it was my manager and one of my receptionists.
And they were a hundred dollars. A hundred with a drawer would be short by a lot of money. And so I called the police after figuring out who was involved, and the gentleman said, you have two choices. You can let it go or you can do something about it. I said, well, I need to do something about it. He said, all right, I’ll send over a squad car.
Like, oh my God, really? And that’s when it all became super real that. I own the business, I’m the lead dog. If I don’t make a decision, then the inmates are gonna roll the roost and from that day forward it, I pulled on my big girl pants and marched on forward. And so the confidence that comes from something that’s scary is something that, [00:11:00] that we all have to understand happens in life and you can avoid it.
My ex-husband wanted to avoid it and I said, no, it needs to be done.
Maggie: You are not a doormat where they’re not gonna walk all over you and take your money,
Meg: and if you don’t pay attention to it,
if you don’t know what your KPIs are, numbers don’t lie.
Dr. Barb: Love it. Right? You gotta stand up and it’s kind of roles like, this is my role, I’m the owner. I need to make a decision here. I need to take charge. It’s gonna be embarrassing and feel awkward and uncomfortable for all of us, but this is the truth. This is what part of being a business owner is.
Meg: And I wanted to be nice.
Dr. Barb: We all wanna be nice and that doesn’t get us anywhere.
Maggie: the biggest thing I am trying to learn as a business owner. I’m like, I’m the owner. I can’t always be nice and. Let people walk over and it’s hard. It’s hard.
Meg: And that’s the lonely part of being a business owner. It’s easier in franchising because you’ve got a network of other owners who are [00:12:00] waving the same flag. We’re all pulling the same rope and so there’s a network of people who have a shared experience. But yes, being an entrepreneur is hard.
And I was a keynote speaker for an event about a year and a half ago, and after I came off stage, woman, and I always talk about my age because I think it’s important to, own it. And this younger woman came, it was a conference, four female entrepreneurs. So many great experiences and comments that I have to share with you about that experience.
But she came up to me and she said, I don’t know how you still, where do you have the energy? I get two or three fires in a day and I’m done. Like, girl, you gotta change your outlook towards fires because you own it and the buck stops with you. And if you’re not willing to make the decisions then you can expect that your business will not thrive.
Dr. Barb: Yeah.
Maggie: when did you wanna start making this transition from owning franchises to kind of, consulting and helping other people [00:13:00] get into the franchise space or grow their franchise?
Meg: Yeah. the gentleman who was the vice president of franchise development at Great Clipse he was bringing people to the market. Now I was in Chicago. The organization supported cooperatives in the marketplace, so I was the co-op president. I was on this, that, and the other committee, or started committees.
And so, Jeff Elgin is his name, Jeff was bringing new candidates for Great Clips to me to help interview them and see if they would be an appropriate fit for the franchise. And he more or less tapped me on the shoulder one day. He said, I am outta here. I’m tired of meeting quotas. I’m tired of people fogging up mirrors and writing checks, who then are not appropriate for the business.
I wanna do this the right way. So I’m starting this company called Franchise. It’s only gonna be people who have franchise experience. Now, I also have a degree in counseling, so it makes me really even more qualified because this [00:14:00] is the role that I play is like an executive recruiter
Dr. Barb: Yes.
Meg: in the world of franchising.
So I’m not a salesperson. I am, I’m a navigator. And so it was easy for me to say. Fearlessly really fearlessly this role is perfectly suited to me. I can’t wait. And he was wise, he said, listen, you’re a single parent. Your son is young. Sell your businesses first. and that’s an important element too, is when you’re ready to mentally get out, you need to prepare your business for sale.
Dr. Barb: Yes,
preach.
Meg: I don’t know how long it took for me to really get organized. I ran clean. I was all above board. I didn’t have any skeletons in the closet that I had to go back and fix. So it was pretty easy for me to get my books together. I had had the idea in mind for a while that, I didn’t have the passion to continue to grow the organization.
So I was in a [00:15:00] way, really ready he got me at the right time where I’d already been thinking about it, about leaving, and then he gave me this opportunity that now I’ve been with franchise for about 25 years.
Dr. Barb: And you’re still doing that today?
Meg: I love it. Yes,
Dr. Barb: So tell me is it just for Great Clips
Meg: no. No, we at franchise, so we have a portfolio of companies kind of like a, a wealth manager.
Dr. Barb: Mm-hmm. Yeah.
Meg: We don’t represent everybody ’cause there are a lot of bad franchises. There are a lot of great ones who can do it on their own or have the internal mechanisms. So our portfolio of companies is about, it’s more than 300 companies right now.
Dr. Barb: Mm-hmm.
Meg: And it’s all across the board. It’s absolutely not food. I think that’s the smallest component proportion of businesses in our portfolio. People n naturally think about that, but
Maggie: That’s
like the first ones that come to mind are subway, dunkins, [00:16:00] McDonald’s. Yeah.
Dr. Barb: Franchisor.
Meg: They may be, but well, worldwide, they have more locations open, but they do their own development. And kind of an interesting thing that people don’t think about is there’s a lot of talk right now about I wanna buy revenue. I wanna buy an existing business. Well, you know what everybody does.
Absolutely everybody wants. That’s the the Holy Grail. Well, can I do it with a franchise? Like the best way to get to buy me out at Great Clips was for someone internally who is already a franchisee because then on the inside we can, we know what’s for sale. We know who’s Struggl.
Dr. Barb: right.
Meg: We know who wants to exit, and that’s the easiest transaction for a franchisor to approve is to somebody who’s already known entity.
So, anyway, long story short franchise represents many, many different industries and very, very few are in the world of food.
Dr. Barb: Got it. So give me a [00:17:00] ballpark of what it costs to purchase a franchise today.
Meg: There’s a huge range. And so, I would say if you want, if an individual wants to make real money, six figures not walking around. Money, not these vending machines, they’ll give you walking around money.
Dr. Barb: Yeah.
Meg: But they’re also very easy to break into and steal from. So, for people who want real money, you’re going to invest six figures and it’s gonna start with a one.
I’ve got companies that are easily a couple million dollars in build out, and so you’re gonna need to have a lot of money at the, at the top end. But the sweet spot for me is really that half a million and less. For people who then want to scale into multiple locations, multiple trucks, they’re not all brick and mortar businesses, like a great clips.
You go to the door, pull it open. You know why they’re there, you know why you’re there. And they know why you’re there is to get a haircut. You don’t [00:18:00] take your home to get new windows. They come to you for your roof, for your fence. And so there are a lot of different opportunities in that half a million and under.
So that people can get in at an, and I’m gonna say affordable because people with money wanna make more money. And so it’s affordable for them to make a six figure investment. And maybe they’re getting a loan, maybe they’re using home equity to fund the startup. And so I work really closely with people to figure out what’s your end goal and how much money do you want to make so that we can right size the investment.
Dr. Barb: Got it. And so do you work with the SBA? I mean, where
do they get the money from typically?
Meg: There are a lot of different financial levers, and I’m not the expert on that. I have a number of different resources that I refer my candidates to so that the information I’m collecting is really at a very high level. What are your assets? What are your liabilities? What’s your credit score? But it when it comes to borrowing the money, [00:19:00] usually my people have already been through.
I would say the front half of their research and have an idea then money in, money out. What does that scalability look like? Okay, well then what’s your personal net worth and how much can be leveraged? So I’ve got funding companies that will walk them through what their real strategies are and how to stack those strategies so that they get the most value for their net worth.
Dr. Barb: Got it.
Maggie: I saw a post recently about how do you re-channel debt, debt being bad and things like that. And debt helps you become rich. The richest people carry debt. And I think this is just such a great example of how debt can be helpful in the long term when you know your goals. And I just kind of wanted to highlight that as debt has such a bad wrap, this is something I’m trying to wrap my head around too, is like the richest people carry debt. Like debt free can’t be the goal.
And I just think this is a great example.
Meg: Yeah. I’m so glad you brought it up, Maggie, because that was a learning lesson for [00:20:00] me. I grew up in a conservative household. My financial upbringing. Was absolutely risk averse, and I had that mentality, that debt was bad. Well, let’s face it, if you’re gonna buy a car or you’re going to buy a home, probably you’re going to get a loan that’s debt.
Well, what people don’t recognize, realize is that particularly in business. That debt gives you tax advantages that save you and I’m, I am not avoiding taxes, but why pay more taxes when there are legitimate strategies that keep more money in your business and in your personal account. And so as Pete, my husband and I have been growing.
Our own organization. Absolutely. Debt and case in point, and it’s so counterintuitive for people, but our entire 2024 tax bill was eradicated because one of our businesses was losing money [00:21:00] and it wasn’t losing money so much as it was a brand new business. It just hadn’t taken off yet. So that was a direct write off we, and that would’ve been a pretty significant tax bill in 2024, completely gone.
Because we had business debt that offset our personal finances.
Maggie: Yeah, I love it. It’s a great example of just, you need that and it, it does help you grow. And so what’s one of like the biggest myths people believe about franchising that you kind of wanna demystify.
Meg: There are a lot of words that we use that are really very subjective. But some of the biggest ones in franchising is that it’s gonna cost me a million bucks. It’s food, but it’s gonna be a business that’s high turnover and a pain in the rear.
Well, no, that, that’s why I want people to work with me, because then I can eradicate some of those common misperceptions and they’re rampant out there. So the role that I have is really a lot of educating [00:22:00] people about what you believe is true is probably not true, but let’s get to the fact.
Of the matter. Go ahead and ask anything that you think, you believe, and let’s get to the bottom of it so that you can put those concerns aside. Yes, there, there are bad franchises. Yes, there are people who lose a lot of money, but if you go about it wisely and properly invest your money, you’re far more likely to make a lot more of it than to lose a lot of it.
Maggie: And that’s why it’s so great to have those people on your team, like you who’ve done it before, who know what to look for. I mean, it’s like investing. You could DIY it and see how well it goes. And I’m not saying it’s gonna go bad, it might go great. You never know you don’t know what you don’t know though.
And so if you have someone like Meg in your corner. Someone who’s had a franchise, it’s like, ah I should ask this. I should know about this. This is something that I should really look at every month. I mean, those are things ’cause you don’t know what you don’t know, especially in this new venture.
Meg: Yeah, owning a business. Well, as you know, being an entrepreneur, [00:23:00] being a solopreneur is super hard and. Bless our family and friends, but a lot of them are black cloud, sky is falling. Oh my God. And what they’re doing is foisting their fears. They’re afraid for you. Well, the beautiful thing about being part of a franchise is there are a whole lot of other people out there doing exactly the same thing.
And If you surround yourself with the people who’ve been successful, learn from their stumbles and falls, we’re all so willing to help The next guy, the next gal. Not make the same mistakes that we have. And so we’re, I’m seeing a lot of early success, much, much faster than say my own great clips way back when.
Yep. There are a lot of individuals who are getting into business and they’re becoming cash flow positive much faster because franchises have gotten a lot smarter.
Dr. Barb: Yeah.
Maggie: Do you find that more people are looking at franchises right now and [00:24:00] that popularity of like purchasing franchises is growing? Yeah. So why do you think, why do you think this is I felt like, and this is totally talking outta my butt, but like I felt like this was like an early two thousands, like was a big franchise thing.
But it’s still really growing this whole opportunity.
Some reason I like thought it was like this early 2000 surge of like franchising, but maybe that was just like when Subway was coming up everywhere.
Meg: It has been year over year, 2020. Of course, everything got set as skew and people were afraid. Just like nine 11 people were afraid, and then we started to come out of it. 2021 at FranChoice was a. Our best year ever. And so the company was founded in the year 2000, so our 21st year Best year ever. 2022.
Best year ever. 2023. Best year ever. And yes, so year over year. And the reasons there, there are a number of reasons for that. One is that [00:25:00] our consultant base. Still is primarily people who come from the world of franchising. We understand the jargon. We understand implementation execution, following the secret sauce.
So our consultant base, like me were smarter and better when it comes to franchise companies. We lost no companies from our portfolio in the pandemic. None of ’em rolled up and blew away and went out of our portfolio. They. They doubled down for technology. They doubled down for everything that we were all talking about back then, the personal protective equipment and sanitation and touchless.
The Implementation more and more of artificial intelligence. It’s never gonna replace a human. I don’t know if you know Mike Rowe and Dirty Jobs. If you’ve got a toilet and it’s overflowing, artificial intelligence is never gonna wipe that out. And so year over year, and when I say it’s the best year [00:26:00] ever, it’s the number of placements that we have had as a company.
So year over year, we have more placements at franchise than all the other consultant or broker groups put together.
Where this is really coming from is number one, accessibility to real information. If people were to follow me on LinkedIn I’m not a salesperson, I put information out there about w to be invested.
And so we’ve all sorts of of people. Coming out of corporate America, we love a good churn because there are people who don’t want to go back. They don’t like that. And then we’ve also got people who are very comfortable and happy, productive in their career, but they’re looking, maybe they’re, they’ve hit a comfort zone and they want another challenge.
This is a diversification strategy. The stock market and investing your money is very passive. [00:27:00] This is a great way, for example, for people who are in their fifties, sixties, seventies even. I’m working with people that, of that generation who have gas in the tank and they’re not done yet. They would like to do something that feels good and it contributes to their community, but they can monetize it.
So where all this interest is coming from is people who are looking for additional revenue streams.
Dr. Barb: So give us a couple of popular franchises that people are looking at
Meg: And we didn’t even tee this up when I’m doing my webinars, one of the FAQs is Mag, what’s hot? What is hot and franchising right now? I, where should I put my money? I wanna be first in, okay, health, fitness, wellness, beauty. We all know during the pandemic that kids, pets and parents got a lot of money thrown at ’em for an entertainment, education and enrichment.
Okay. Then their home services, if it’s coming in your roof, if it’s coming in your basement, if it’s fire, smoke, [00:28:00] whatever it might be. So home and business services, and then at the very tail end of it is what I would call experiential retail
has become a catchphrase. If people are going out on a date, they wanna go out and do a girl’s night out, whether it’s a meal or an activity.
could be art class, it could be I would even put something like a a I was gonna say Chipotle where you go in, you see the food being prepared you,
so some of it is food, but experiential, like kids and trampoline parks and dog parks.
Dr. Barb: Dog parks. That’s what I wanna open a dog park with a bar. Right Maggie? Like they have in KC
Meg: Yeah. People. Don’t wanna go where it’s stale and boring. They wanna go where they’re, it’s an experience.
Dr. Barb: Yeah.
That’s really great.
Maggie: And so are you seeing a lot of these franchise owners be women? Are you seeing a lot more women in this space? [00:29:00] I wish people could hear your facial expressions. ’cause they’re so good when I ask these questions, but I know the audio does not pick it up.
Meg: I had been amazed a number of years ago when I, so I started in the Chicago area and then as I’ve been with franchise for such a long time, we’re not territory bound so I can work with anybody anywhere in the United States. And so I was finding that there are certain pockets of the country where women are leading the decision on this investment.
And it’s not just single women, but it’s female head of household. Milwaukee was my first eyeopener to how many women were really attracted to franchising because if you think about who does well in franchising, people who like to cook or bake ’cause they’re following a recipe.
People who played on a sports team, ’cause everybody’s got their role. Everybody knows their place on the field, and we all know what the win looks like.
People who are in the military, it’s the same thing. There is a battle plan [00:30:00] and there’s an outcome, and we will leave. No man, we’ll leave no person behind.
So it anybody who has played, say an instrument and had to do a concert, so you’ve been training and practicing and your ultimate goal is to get up there and do your recital. and a lot of those are women.
Maggie: Yeah, it’s fun to see how applicable that is. ’cause I can see somebody who’s like, oh, I’ve been a a musician my whole life. Like I probably shouldn’t own a franchise. It’s like, no, you could fit right in. ’cause so many of those things are applicable and I think. We limit ourselves so much about that, and again, much easier said than done, right?
But we limit ourselves like, oh, well I’ve been a stay at home parent. Great. You’ve been running a household, you’ve been running the boat, you’ve been getting everywhere on time. You’ve been cooking and cleaning and doing all the things. You know how to get it done while still managing the PTO board.
Dr. Barb: I know, right? She’s pretty good.
Meg: This is exactly correct. People will, and it’s men as well, but women [00:31:00] as we know, will diminish themselves and it’s, if I could, if I could get rid of that word, imposter. It drives me. You can tell from my facial expression, my reaction. It drives me nuts because we all are, we were born into this world knowing nothing, and we all got taken home by two people or maybe one who said, I’ve never done this before.
That baby doesn’t know any different.
call yourself an imposter. But this is what we all do. We all learn how to ride a bike. We all learn how to swim. We’ve all done things.
Dr. Barb: that whole imposter syndrome, I think is a theory that’s made up and put on us to make us feel less than because it’s just, it’s not true. We don’t have imposter syndrome. Everybody has a little fear, a little anxiety trying something new. So do men. Men and women. But we try it, right?
Like you said, you have a baby. No one’s ever prepared for that. God knows I wasn’t. [00:32:00] But look. she’s bed and watered and she grew up and she’s good. But you know, exactly, I think that whole imposter syndrome is just a bunch of bull that was made up to put on women. It’s the same thing.
And I’ve read this article and saw speaker on imposter phase. They used to say when women gave bicycle face, because. When women started riding bicycles, which gave them so much more freedom, they would so say you, you shouldn’t ride that bicycle.
’cause it gives you bicycle face, which is kind of like wrinkled or squinted or something like that. That doesn’t make you look good. It’s the same thing. It just, they’re putting labels on us that just are not true. So when people say that about imposter syndrome, I say, Hmm, that’s not true.
Meg: One of my earliest recollections about riding a bike, yes, I fell, didn’t work the first time, but once I got going, you could not get that smile off my face. So bicycle face should really be, Hey, look what I’ve done.
[00:33:00] Which is exactly what we’re doing the first time you follow a recipe and it pull it out of the oven or off the stove and it tastes good.
Well, congratulations. You followed a recipe. You didn’t have to make it up from scratch. And that I could think one of the myths going back to an earlier question that irritates me, is how many people think that owning a franchise is cheating in business.
Cheating. There are whole segments of people out there who will not look at a franchise because somehow they fell under the spell of You are a real business owner if you start it from scratch.
Well, you know how many people have bad business idea? My husband and I do a lot of angel investing. There are a lot of great ideas and bad operators,
Mm-hmm. and so if you want success. Then let’s get over that whole notion that it’s cheating. ’cause I’ll tell you what, when my parents had that opinion as well.
Oh, Maggie. Oh, Maggie Craig Clips is a [00:34:00] chop shop. You’re worth more than that. Don’t you have your own business idea? You graduated from Northwestern, come on. And I had this real heart to heart with parents one day. ‘Cause I was a single parent and my dad said, honey, you really should be going back to get your MBA you.
You’re worth so much more than this. And I said, well Dad, how much do you think I’m worth? Well, six figures, you ought be making at least six figures. I said, well, I am with Great Clips And I did it never cutting hair. I did it by executing a system and being excellent at it.
And so when my dad and I drilled down even further into that, and this is, this had to have been in the. Nineties, probably the late nineties. Sure. ’cause I was divorced at that point, so it would’ve been like 19 98, 99, somewhere in there. And I said, dad, I am making six figures. What if I told you that my take home right now plus owner [00:35:00] benefit my car?
All of my write-offs, again, learning of the tax strategies. I was at more than two 50. And he looked at me with bright eyed just disbelief that with a chop shop haircut, I could be making that kind of money. And so he immediately he was foisting his fears on me. I should be accomplishing more.
So my, my experience with this franchise has essentially given me, and I did go and take some MBA classes. I was acing everything because I learned it boots on
Dr. Barb: The real way. Yes.
Maggie: It was, in theory it was real p and ls,
Meg: It’s really fun when people who are naysayers bring those beliefs and instill them on me, and I can say, you’ve gotta completely wrong.
Maggie: yeah.
And I can see a dad just being like, well, I just wanna make sure you’re taken care of. You’re a single parent. Like, I don’t wanna [00:36:00] have to support you. Like different I can see their own fears, but you’re like, I’m two 50 in the early nineties. That’s, that’s good money. I mean, it’s still good money today, but not as much as it was in the nineties.
Dr. Barb: Yeah,
Meg: Yeah, well, and so a lot of that was not my salary, it wasn’t the distributions. It was also, because I had borrowed from, I’m a big believer and bet on myself, and so I was not afraid to take out a home equity line of credit or borrow against my retirement fund. I’m in my thirties, I’m in my forties.
I’m a heck of a long way from that. So why not take that money and invest it in my business? And so there’s a way to take the money, put it into your business, and then you’re creating a self-directed IRA to get it back out again. And I was taking the maximum amount. Something like $53,000 a year outta my business to put back into a retirement account.
So there are people who say, oh, I don’t want, I’m afraid of losing my retirement. I’m afraid of losing my house. Well, if we do it the right way and you’re invested in the right [00:37:00] business, you’re gonna come out on the other side with a lot of tax benefits as well as, so it, I wanna be clear for anyone who’s listening, I wasn’t just taking two 50 out of the business, but it was the equivalent of salary distribution and then.
Some of the things that people don’t even think about, they are running through their business. Any good tax advisor will tell you what you legitimately can run through your business.
Maggie: And that’s kind of the point, right? It’s not about bringing all the money home, it’s about filling these buckets. So if I don’t have to pay my car bill, if the car’s just kind of written off, sure, I don’t need the cash. You know, like the car’s taken care of. I don’t need the money to come outta my paycheck into retirement if it’s going straight there, sure it doesn’t matter.
You know, all the buckets are still getting filled at the end of the day. if someone’s curious about franchising, what’s the first question they should ask before jumping in, or one of the top questions?
Meg: Meg, can I work with you?
Maggie: Great answer,
Dr. Barb: Amen.
Meg: And so. I’ve been doing this for a long time because it’s not physical, it’s mental, I’m gonna [00:38:00] keep doing it because it brings me joy. I love, okay, so my background my mother is a hospice nurse, and so death and dying is the scariest thing that any of us confront. And so. I took that from my mother.
She used to do public speaking and hold up her palms and say, from lily pad to Lily pad from life to death. Well, I hold up my palms and say to people, what if you could take a leap from where you are onto this other lily pad and you’re gonna stick the landing? You’re gonna be that frog that lands on that lily pad.
You’re not gonna fall in the water. You’re not gonna get eaten by the shark or the bass or whatever else is down there. Let me help you evaluate this in the end. I don’t care if your answer is yes or no. I just want you to have the curiosity to say, yeah I wonder what it would be like to own my own business.
I’m not sure if I’m qualified or ready. Great, let’s have a conversation about that. And then when you are qualified and ready, you’ll have the facts to know.
So don’t do it [00:39:00] alone. It’s, it’s really hard to do it alone.
Dr. Barb: Yeah, for sure. I love this conversation. I just think it opens up a whole new world of opportunity that some women may not even be thinking about. We did have a young woman on here who started, who bought a franchise and it was in heating and air conditioning. Something she knew nothing about, but like you described, she wanted to get out of corporate, of working hard for somebody else and really build her own business up.
And so we support her and promote her all the time because we want to support women owned, women led businesses. This is another opportunity for women to really step into their own power, learn from you Meg, and see that they can run their own. Real life, real business in a way that’s repeatable processes.
It’s been they have, they’ve shown success. That’s why there’s so many of them out there, whether it be a Great clips or any anything else. And I think [00:40:00] this would be a great opportunity for so many women to really take a look at.
Meg: And the other element that is. Rewarding for me is that I’ve been divorced. I’ve been through I’ve stumbled and fallen people. I think, look at successful people and think that somehow we were born with it. I can relate to any fear that anybody is going to bring. I’ve been there and I’ve done it.
If people had any idea, some of the risks that I then got ballsy enough to take that I did not win, I did not win at every decision. A solid resource for people who have fear and concern, because chances are I’ve had that stumble and fall. But if you’re willing to get back up again and say, all right, well that was a learning experience, didn’t kill me.
Let’s go on.
One of my military friends said to me his philosophy is, you know what, Meg, you can quit, but not until tomorrow.
Maggie: That’s a great [00:41:00] one.
Meg: And that’s one of those things that’s in the back of my mind every day is okay. That was hard. Well, tomorrow will probably be easier and it’ll for sure be different.
Maggie: If I got over that, I can get over anything else. Right.
And so there is a question, Meg, we like to ask all of our guests and so, what does financial freedom mean to you?
Meg: Oh gosh. Options,
financial freedom gives me the option to take risks, start more businesses, give more employees opportunity to work for somebody who’s gonna create a great culture. Yeah, financial freedom came at a price. Just like living in the United States comes with a price freedom is not free.
Free. to me and to my husband as well, we keep creating because it, that financial freedom gives us options.
Maggie: Yeah. I love it. Well, thank you for coming on and sharing your expertise and being such a great resource for people who are interested in franchises. ’cause I think [00:42:00] this is a great opportunity. It’s exciting to see that it’s growing and I honestly still can’t get over that. Your son didn’t even think you worked. What great time management, like, I’m still stuck there. So thank you Meg, for coming on and just being the amazing resource that you are.
Meg: Thank you so much for having me. I’ve been looking forward to this for some time. And Barb, your episode on my podcast is coming up, so it’s super fun to have the different formats and different points of view, so I really appreciated being invited on, so thank you.
Maggie: until next time, be financially fearless.
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